Mouse rant blog vent mouse.

Tuesday, February 15, 2005

Trying not to get sucked in, failing miserably

I've been watching the debates on the movie Deep Throat over at Alas with interest, though rarely commenting. I never watched the movie beginning to end, and consider anyone who would watch a porn beginning to end someone who is missing the point entirely. Despite this, I fully agree that the plot is a retarded, juvenile male fantasy, but I can't work up the enthusiasm to care. If my sexual fantasies were held up for examination, I doubt that I would pass the maturity test, much less the not using the opposite sex as mere objects test. Nope, I'd flunk.

What I find interesting is the discussion around Linda Lovelace/Boreman's various accounts of that period of her life. From what I understand, after she became born-again and married a Christian man, L/B joined up with the anti-pornography feminists. I don't doubt that she was abused during her years in the porn industry, especially by her husband. Like I said in the comments at Alas, back then it was a criminal industry that operated like prostitution does now, and pimp behavior is to be expected. In a sexist culture, misogyny and exploitation of women is bound to be the standard on the edges of society.

But I really do think that anti-porn feminists might be a tad too eager to embrace Boreman's sad story to indict the very existence of pornography. Not that it isn't a legitimate thing to say that rape and abuse of women in the industry is an argument against it, of course. And maybe my issue comes from the fact that I don't think that rape and abuse have to be a part of pornography--as I've said before, I think that abuse is the result of misogyny, not sexual explicitness, and attacking porn itself instead of dealing with how misogyny gets eroticized in the first place is a band-aid solution that is bound to backfire. But here's the thing that drives me batshit crazy when I see Boreman's story brought up--born-again Christians dedicated to a patriarchal ideal are just another manifestation of the same sexism that you see in the porn world.

Two sides, same coin. Good, Christian patriarchal households breed just as much rape and abuse of women, and probably a hell of a lot more, than the porn industry. Well-meaning feminists should reconsider standing with anti-porn activists that come from the Christian right, regardless of whether they really do think they have a common enemy or not. I'm not going to waste time arguing my pro-porn feelings, as I have wasted enough space doing that. Sexists in porn want all women to be whores; sexists in religion want us all to be virgins. The lot of them can kiss my ass.

I really hate seeing feminists who hate porn suck it up and admire someone for submitting to what amounts to just a different set of soul-sucking standards for female behavior in order to solidify their case. I was talking with a friend today about this and that and I mentioned that I am all-too familiar with what I call the Good Woman's smile, common enough to Good Christian Texan Women. It's easy enough to spot--tight smile, sad eyes, resigned shoulders. It freezes on your face after years of having your soul crushed repeatedly by having family, town, husband, everything demand that you be a solid rock of pleasant femininity, with no needs or desires of your own. Yeah, and that includes the desire to let loose once in awhile and go crazy in the sack. Or just the desire to blow off smiling beatifically at your husband while wishing that you were at home watching your TV show in peace instead.

By no means am I saying that porn is a cure for that. Far from it. I'm just saying that insipid male fantasies of women whose only sexual pleasure is pleasuring men isn't at all different in my mind from the social demand that good Christian wives float through life without any apparent desires other than serving others. Maybe Linda Boreman saw things differently, and that's her right. If her new religion and her new family was a respite from domestic violence, then god knows I don't blame her. But it would do well for those of us looking at this from a political angle to be careful not to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

367 Comments:

Anonymous 88 said...

Despite this, I fully agree that the plot is a retarded, juvenile male fantasy, but I can't work up the enthusiasm to care."The plot of the Haidl videotaped rape is juvenile too, but shouldn't the fact that men really put a lit cigarette to an unconscious 16-year-old's vagina concern you more than the plot? I don't know what your fantasies are, but I feel secure in saying they're not being filmed doing what Linda Boreman had to do on film whether you believe she was raped or not.

I don't doubt that she was abused during her years in the porn industry, especially by her husband.

That's funny, because it sure looks like that from my computer screen. You don't doubt that she was abused but you don't consider Deep Throat a videotaped rape whose distribution should be stopped because it is the depiction of a rape. Maybe you think it was filmed on the days Boreman wasn't being abused by her husband, in between the days where you admit you think she was abused by him.

Like I said in the comments at Alas, back then it was a criminal industry that operated like prostitution does now, and pimp behavior is to be expected.That's some monumental denial you've got going here. Pornographers in LA regularly call pimps up and order specific types of girls by race, hair color, tit size, etc. The millions of public relations dollars spent convincing people like you that porn and prostitution are not actually the same thing and aren't mostly controlled by organized crime has paid off handsomely. Surely none of the people in the porn you use were illegally trafficked, raped, or coerced into performing for you because you give your money to pornographers, not pimps, even though .In a sexist culture, misogyny and exploitation of women is bound to be the standard on the edges of society.

And the girls and women forced to live every day on the sexist, abusive, misognist "edge" because you buy the videos of it to get sexual kicks in the safety of your home, what about them?

Not that it isn't a legitimate thing to say that rape and abuse of women in the industry is an argument against it, of course.Of course not, but how legitimate is it to say feminists should keep giving their money to pimps despite the acknowledged widespread rape and abuse it takes to make average, mainstream pornography? Amanda, pimps are the men who take the money from pornographers to provide prostituted bodies, and they didn't fade away after the 1970's. Quite the contrary, cops and social workers are finding teenage boys pimping their girlfriends at younger ages than ever recorded and human trafficking is on the rise globally. Can you honestly say the whole pimping cultural phenom happening right now has nothing to do with the proliferation of internet porn the past 10 years? I lived through the 70's and I can't think of one song about pimping, or any TV shows with pimp in the title, or any beverages! that had pimp in their title, but you're sure that increase in the sex industry has led to a decrease in pimping and glorification of pimps? Hard to believe we're living in the same US of A because my reality doesn't reflect that in the slightest.

attacking porn itself instead of dealing with how misogyny gets eroticized in the first place is

the most ridiculously blind statement I have seen a feminist make regarding this topic. The disconnect in your mind between prostitution and porn, human trafficking and porn, the eroticizing of violence and porn is truly mind boggling.

An Australian online research company found the most downloaded porn image on the whole internet last year was a picture of a prostitute with a horse cock jammed into and stretching her vagina to freakish dimensions, and still you cling to your wistful idea that men don't actively seek to diminish women's humanity through porn because porn is just a byproduct of a sexist society and not something that itself eroticizes violence against females.

Good, Christian patriarchal households breed just as much rape and abuse of women, and probably a hell of a lot more, than the porn industry.That would be part of why millions of "pious" Christian men use porn, visit strip clubs and rent prostitutes. There are a whole lot more "good Christian men" exploiting women in the sex industry than there are fighting with anti-sexism feminists against the commodification and objectification of women. If you want to consider who you are really standing with when you give your money to the commercial sex industry you'll have to include all those good Christian men plus serial killers, pedophiles, the 'Haidl" raping boys, the "Glen Ridge" raping boys and a lot more. The RNC in New York 2004 saw thousands of prostitutes trafficked into the city just for the event to satisfy demands of male conventioneer johns and male counter-protestors johns alike.

Similarly, I'm anti-death penalty, and though there are many American Christians who agree with me, there are many more who don't. I'm not going to stop being anti-death penalty because the biggest campaigners on the issue domestically are Christian, especially not when there are lots more American Christians and liberals alike who are not against the death penalty.

I'm just saying that insipid male fantasies of women whose only sexual pleasure is pleasuring men isn't at all different in my mind from the social demand that good Christian wives float through life without any apparent desires other than serving others.Porn is insipid male fantasies of women whose only sexual pleasure is pleasuring men, so if you consider it in line with conservative thinking I'm confused as to why you use and defend porn.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Kyso K. said...

88, calm down. I think your passion on the subject has colored what you think Amanda said. She said, as far as I read, that anti-porn activists(feminist) and anti-porn activists (religious) may not have as much in common as they think. And that's true. If they (and I assume you) got thier wish and all pornography was banned forever, I think they'd find two things: one, they'd be instant enemies as soon as they asked, what next? and two: the outcome of censorship would probably not be what either one expected.

Amanda's main point, as far as I could tell, is that misogyny is misogyny, no matter what form it comes in. Hardcore porn like what you describe is horrible and emotion-stirring: it's easy to get angry over. So easy, in fact, that women who hate it because they hate to see women objectified seem to be willing to ignore that anti-feminists objectify women too. Just because one of your battles is the same does not mean you are fighting the same war.

Amanda's second point was that pornography (re: pictures that arouse people) is not inheirently a bad thing. Misogyny (re: the attitude that makes horse-woman pictures amusing, much less arousing) is the real problem. You have to already think of women (or homosexual men, or transvestites, or whomever your victem is) as objects before you can find that stuff acceptable. And since I've never seen a secret room where young boys are forced to watch hardcore porn until they stop crying and start asking for more, then this attitude must be coming from somewhere else. And by somewhere, I mean everywhere.

The problem will not be solved by halting the creation or distribution of porn. For starters, if you make America inhospitable to producing porn, then pornographers will simply relocated to a freindlier country with fewer laws and more desperate, disenfranchised women to exploit. And yahoos here will still buy it. We'd being seeing stuff that would make the horse picture seem vanilla almost instantly. Secondly, they already tried supressing porn at the retail/wholesale/distribution level. It was called the Comstock Law, and Comstock did everything he could, and he still lost to the baser instincts of America. People want it, they'll take it, now how do we make it less damaging to both men and women?

The only real long-term solution to getting violence out of the sex industry is to give pornographers a consumer base that will not respond positivly to rape and violence. And that means getting young boys and men to see women as people rather than objects, and that is a book-worthy list of subtopics on it's own. But if we could do that, damn, would so many problems be solved.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Look, I see what you're saying and I'm trying to find some common ground here. But I think ultimately the disconnect isn't in my mind, because I don't necessarily think sex work is a bad thing. More importantly, I think it's here to stay--people want it, gotta have it, it's gonna happen. I think completely Anti attitudes are leading to a situation where sex work is the province only of sexists and that's where most of the problems are. Demonization of female sexuality leads to dehumanizing porn. If more men were forced to become familiar with the fact that women's sexuality isn't theirs to manipulate, the I really, truly do think that you'd see a shift in attitudes in sex work.

The horse dick thing--odds are that the vast majority of people who downloaded it did so for the same reason people go to freak shows, because they just want to confirm that it's real. This is why I get frustrated--most men who look at porn aren't seeking out female humiliation for arousal. They are seeking out nekkid women having sex. Period. If the real desires of most people drove porn, there would be different content. Persistently misunderstanding these men and their motivations is deeply problematic.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Kyoso said it better. Also, I am deeply opposed to doing anything that increases the political power of the religious right, since they aim to hurt a maximum number of women and they have a good chance of succeeding.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Kyso K. said...

Hey, thanks. Like you, I have a more tolerant view of porn in general, partly because I have more than one media class under my belt and partly because two of the biggest porn-consumers in my life (my roommate and my ex-boyfried) are also two very well-adjusted men who are not complete assholes towards women. They're no feminists, but if every mysogynist in the world turned into one of these guys tomorrow, I don't think anyone would complain too much. I guess enough education and some decent relationships with non-fuck-buddy women can take some of the edge off of porno-based education in female psychology.

But the very nature of porn makes people emotional and inconsistent. My ex, for example, had a huge guilt complex about his real-life porn pics, which consisted mostly what looked like to be webcam self-portraits of topless college-age women, just sitting around, always alone in the shot, usually looking somewhere off-camera. These were not supermodels or stereotypical porn stars, it was the most harmless stuff you could possibly download and call porn. His mom found the folder once and freaked out, he was upset for days.

What boggled my mind though (besides the fact that a woman could be surprised her 20-year-old son had a porn collection) was that he had manga pictures on the wall. He was a meticulous neat-freak, so they were all properly matted and framed. (He kept a rotating roster of anime slides and computer printouts to fill the frames) So his mom literally has to walk past almost half a dozen tastefully framed pictures of anime-style drawings of girls with huuuuge breasts (one particularly memorable one had a frilly, boobless dress with cherries for nipples, and a straw leading to her pubic area, which was for some reason flourescent green) to chastise him about a few kb of pictures of topless girls who resemble his girlfriend.

It was like, I'm sorry, what now? I liked his RL-porn collection, because I liked the fact that his idea of sexy was very much grounded in reality. Little Miss Cherry-Nipples, however, creeped me the fuck out, and eventually she kept her spot on the wall just so he could listen to me complain about her.

I believe, however, that animated porn can serve for all the violent fucked-up fantasy exploring anyone needs to do. It's easier to keep the mental divide between fantasy and reality that way, and it keeps real people from being hurt. I'll accept alot from a manga that would be reprehensible in photography or movie form.

2/16/2005

 
Anonymous 88 said...

I got as far as calm down and thought, “like I give a fuck what this random internet asswipe starting off with this crap thinks? Hint- don’t start posts like that if you actually want them read by the person you’re responding to.

I think ultimately the disconnect isn't in my mind, because I don't necessarily think sex work is a bad thing.Prostitution is porn. Porn is prostitution. Humans are the 3rd most traded item on the black market, organized crime controls even the quasi-legal porn made in the US, most people in the porn industry are child rape survivors and addicted to drugs, but you just can’t put that all (and a helluva lot more) together and come up with “Maybe this isn’t feminist?” That would stretch the bounds of plausibility for you?

Of course you don’t think it’s a bad thing because you’re a john who pays pimps in Los Angeles to make prostitutes perform for your finger fucking entertainment. If you were a prostitute you would feel differently, but lots of johns consider sex work just dandy so why should you be any different because instead of getting your prostitutes locally you get them pre-pimped and pre-packaged in California?

More importantly, I think it's here to stay--people want it, gotta have it, it's gonna happen.That was said about African slavery once, too.

Women have always been men’s whores and women will always be men’s whores? The videotaped rape of an abused woman is what people want, and who are we as feminsts to question when “people” want to see women being raped on film or fucked by horses so ah well?

All crimes are here to stay, there’s no 100% eradication of any of them, but since when does a 100% eradication goal not being met mean no attempts should even be made to help the victims of crimes? We don’t go saying that since men are going to beat their girlfriends anyway we should unionize domestic violence victims and hope to do harm reduction instead of teaching men it isn’t acceptable to hit women and there will be serious consequences if they do.

You keep waiting for that day unionized men refuse to go to brothels, porn shops and strip clubs because they’re standing in solidarity with unionized sex workers demanding better work conditions and won’t cross picket lines until those conditions are met.

I think completely Anti attitudes are leading to a situation where sex work is the province only of sexists and that's where most of the problems are.So when prostitutes in one region of the US report being raped an average 31 times a year, it will be MY FAULT if men rape 32 times a year because I tried to help stop them from getting raped 3 times a month by their customers? MY FAULT if men who use whores despise them so they find something WORSE to do to sex workers than rape, murder and feed them to pigs (what could be worse than that)? MY FAULT, not the raping sexual predators whose needs to wet their dicks with prostituted bodies you’re treating like the 11th Commandment, “Thou shalt have the right to stick things in women whenever and however thou desireth”?

If more men were forced to become familiar with the fact that women's sexuality isn't theirs to manipulate, the I really, truly do think that you'd see a shift in attitudes in sex work.And if men didn’t rape women, there would be no raped women.

The whole g-d point of “sex work” is that women’s sexuality is men’s to manipulate. That is the whole point, Amanda. It’s a huge point, and you’re just not getting that men ordering a woman on the phone to stick their dicks in like men order pizzas to consume is bad for all women’s humanity. How does supporting men’s rights to make women submit themselves sexually for money do anything but reaffirm men’s presumed right to manipulate women’s sexuality to suit their desires?

The horse dick thing--odds are that the vast majority of people who downloaded it did so for the same reason people go to freak shows, because they just want to confirm that it's real.Glad to know when men need someone to excuse their apparently enormous appetite for seeing women get fucked by animals you’ll be there. Hugh Hefner is famous for having one of the largest collections of bestiality porn in the world, and Asian sex markets commonly have girls on the steps of brothels with snakes and small animals wriggling in their vaginas, but it’s really just a nongendered freak-out thing and has nothing to do with humiliating women and female sexuality at all. Whatever gets you through your next porn viewing, I guess.

most men who look at porn aren't seeking out female humiliation for arousal.Yeah, those poor men just satisfying their human curiosity about how horse cocks fit into vaginas were just motivated by simple nongendered physics considerations. Could have just as easily have been a man’s ass with a horse cock up it and it would have generated the same simple (yet quite disproportionately male) attention.

It’s also just as likely you’ll see a porn titled “Independent Women Making Passionate Love” as “Drunk Teen Sluts Love Big Cocks” or “Cumwhore Gangbang Bitches”, and when men make those nasty videos Top Ten on the Adult Video News list it’s because they love and respect nekkid women and don’t like seeing women sexually humiliated. In fact, I'll bet a lot of men have written letters to pornographers telling them that they don't like seeing women disrespected and to tone down the misogyny.

Why are you defending pimps and traffickers against the sick realities about the sex industry when anyone who knows anything about porn and prostitution knows what you're saying about men's lack of desire to see humiliated and mistreat sexual, but especially prostituted, women isn't true?

2/16/2005

 
Anonymous 88 said...

The very notion that nothing can or should be done about the rampant, growing problems of trafficking, sexual slavery, coerced prostitution of ever-younger minors and anti-woman misogynist porn because it will give power to the religious right is a new low for feminist theory.

The religious right has many hands profitable hands in the sex industry and are large consumers of the sex industry, and corporations that make millions off porn are just so many more conservative multinational corporations; they're not liberal million-dollar global corporations because there is no fucking thing in the business world, there only $$$$$$, and $$$$$$ doesn't give a shit which corporatist party's puppet is in office in a given year.

I'm proud that I don't knee-jerkingly hate the religious right more than I love women and am committed to their sexual autonomy.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Kyso K. said...

And, because I appearently have some sort of 100,000 word quota to fill here (hey, my job involves alot of watching computers do shit, what can I say?)

Speaking of mental disconnects, Amanda makes the point that she can not agree with feminist anti-porn activits pairing up with religious anti-porn activists because in the long run, giving the religious right an inch will cost us all several miles. She points out that she has some experience with the type of women that the religous right would like us all to be, and yeah, they've had thier souls and personalities removed by erosion. 88 says she will continue to side with them because all that matters is the goal of banning porn to help the victims.

Meanwhile, 88 makes the simoulaneous (and true) assertion that the family values crowds are also the biggest consumers of porn, strippers and hookers.

OK: All together now: THE PEOPLE ON THE FAR RIGHT WHO WANT IT ALL BANNED ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE BUYING IT OR SHACKLED TO SOMEONE WHO IS BUYING IT. AND THESE MEN ALSO DON'T TIP, SO THEY'RE NOT DOING STRIPPERS ANY GOOD. And back to the theme of mousewords: IT'S ABOUT CONTROL OVER WOMEN, STUPID!

Yeah, the sex industry is slimey and creepy and scary, but banning it will only do bad things: make it slimier, creepier and scarier, and make it harder for our socially designated whores to get the help they need when things get out of hand (like they're drowning in help now, I know, but you get my point). It also makes it easier for any woman who does not fit the virgin/mommy archetype to be dismissed as a hopeless slut, and yours for the taking. Destigmatizing sex work (legalize it, standarize it, tax the living fuck out of it, and legal protections for everyone, hurrah!) would make it harder for these people to do bad things.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I reiterate--I'm trying to find a common ground here. But the deep upset over sex work doesn't jibe with my experiences of it. Look, I've said before and I'll say as long as it's necessary--I get that there's abuse, rape, evil, etc. in sex work. I just reject that it's a natural result of sex work itself and think that it's just how a sexist culture demonstrates itself on the extreme edges.

You complain that there's not female-friendly porn. I disagree. A number of writers and pornographers out there are doing female-friendly stuff and it's gaining in popularity and quickly. And plenty of male-oriented companies are wiseing up to the fact that humiliating women isn't what men are looking for in porn. I've watched long, mainstream porns that are nothing more than a guy eating a girl out or tedious lesbian shit. You can say what you will about that stuff, but it isn't hateful towards women.

What I want is a place where people can both accept that pimping is wrong and that sex work is not inherently sexist. I think the #1 reason that sex work is men hiring/using/abusing women is because men have power over women. But I really, truly think that if there was true equality, sex work wouldn't go away, but instead we'd see people of all sorts of sexual identities consuming and providing.

It's not a throwaway thing that gay men make and use porn the same as men. They are using their male privilege to have porn, but the men in the porn have the same fucking privilege. And women make and use porn for each other that objectifies men--mostly romance novels. Objectification is part of our sexuality, and that's fine in its place. And if men lose their superior position, we will see the horribly humiliating porn wither away.

2/16/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

Not the language I'd use, but then, it's not my story to tell: Labor Organizing In The Skin Trade.

Also, there was a chapter in China Miéville's novel, Iron Council, in which prostitutes went on strike, and linked their strike to other striking railway workers. But of course, that's a fantasy novel.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous 88 said...

I just reject that it's a natural result of sex work itself and think that it's just how a sexist culture demonstrates itself on the extreme edges.That still makes it wrong. The magnitude and severity of abuses in prostitution still make them wrong despite your acceptance of what's done to people to provide a mostly male leisure activity. You're telling me when sexism is a thing of the past that life for prostitutes will get better, and I'm telling you expecting feminists to wait for sexism to go away before doing something real about prostitution, porn, trafficking, etc. is worse than saying "just wait a little longer" because it will never happen that sexism is no longer a force in gender relations.

You complain that there's not female-friendly porn.I don't complain this, and it doesn't matter because the many harms of prostitution stand outside whether johns of any sex are enjoying the show. Females are human and can ignore the exploited suffering of other humans just as well as men; patriarchy and self defense almost require this blindness of women to the suffering of other women.

And plenty of male-oriented companies are wiseing up to the fact that humiliating women isn't what men are looking for in porn.What makes you say that? Feministing had a post not too long ago about the rise in popularity of "humilitainment' porn.

What I want is a place where people can both accept that pimping is wrong and that sex work is not inherently sexist.
Look how hard it is for even you who believe Boreman was abused by her husband and believe the criminal nature of Deep Throat's origins, to accept that Deep Throat is a the filming of real sexual torture. Despite everything you know and admit you believe, you can't make that simple statement. If you were exempt from feeling obligated to try to stop the re-release of this filmed rape to mainstream audiences, would you make a declaration of your belief that Boreman was an abused woman and the criminal involvement and funding casts significant credibility on Boreman's assertions?

if there was true equality, sex work wouldn't go away, but instead we'd see people of all sorts of sexual identities consuming and providing..

How many people are you willing to sacrifice until we get the true gender equality you think will make the situation better and how long do you think it will be until we have true equality, because I think that's never gonna happen. Jockeying for power is human.

And if men lose their superior position, we will see the horribly humiliating porn wither away.And if there were no raped women it would be because men stopped raping women. Because I want to accomplish change I don't operate from such utopian vantage points.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse in your feminist route on how to make men stop learning to derive pleasure from seeing women hurt and sexually humiliated.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

So, if struggling for gender equality is utopian and pointless, then what real change can we possibly have?

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous 88 said...

Struggling for equality is great. Amanda's position that feminists shouldn't do anything to challenge the proliferation of an explicitly misogynist media made with prostituted people because one day sexism will dissappear and take all sexist problems with it isn't struggling for anything. It's like walking into a Walmart and insisting that giving money to the woman at the register is fighting sexism because one day there will be no more sexism and supporting that register worker right now by buying Walmart products is the best thing to do. Don't blame Walmart managers or try to hold them accountable because it's not their fault they're exploiting women, it's just the natural result of a sexist culture.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I'm not saying don't fight it. I'm just saying that it's counter-productive to side up with people that mean to oppress us because we think mean-spirited porn is worse than every other kind of oppression.

I admitted that Boreman's husband abused her. Whether or not she willingly performed in porn movies is another story--I can't say, I really can't. Am I trying to weasel out of something? Could be. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't think that porn either causes sexism or that it is anything more than one more facet of a sexist culture. And yes, I want to deal with sexism with positivity as much as possible.

And frankly, I think trying to get more positive, female-friendly porn out there to compete is the only workable solution to the humiliation that dominates now. Censorship isn't going to work. I want a solution that has a half-assed chance of working. In my own life, I do what I can to educate people around me about finding other sexual materials that are not built around female humiliation.

And when I say that you are seeing a response to demand for porn that isn't misogynist, I mean it. Just because there is still misogynist porn doesn't change that fact. I've never seen a single porn from the 70s that wasn't homophobic and misogynist. But I see plenty now that are neither. And yes, some men are clamoring for hateful porn--like Kyoso said, it's a chicken or egg thing. They are aroused by hating women not because of the porn, but because they grew up despising women.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous 88 said...

it's counter-productive to side up with people that mean to oppress us because we think mean-spirited porn is worse than every other kind of oppression.C'mon Amanda, you know better than to pull the "there are worse oppressions so this one isn't important" dodge.

I'm not going to be pro-death penalty because many Christians are anti-death penalty, and liberal men as a whole are doing a splendid job oppressing women but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. The uncompromised drawing of such lines is what's dividing America so deeply we can't get together to work on the issues affecting us.

Porn isn't merely "mean-spirited movies", it's the sexist end result of vulnerable, addicted people being prostituted and sexually abused on film.

I don't think that porn either causes sexism or that it is anything more than one more facet of a sexist culture.There are harms that comes directly from what it takes to make pornography, because it takes prostitutes to make it and prostitutes are made, not born. Criminalizing child porn shows an implicit understanding of this and the inherent harms of violated sexual body integrity even if no outright violence is on film or used in the production. I know it must be difficult for you to see behind the camera lens when you're so used to being at the consumer end, but please try because a lot of violent, dangerous shit is happening there.

I think trying to get more positive, female-friendly porn out there The trend so far is that the more woman-friendly some porn gets the more viciously violent and hateful the porn industry as a whole gets. As pornographer Mickey Bee told the LA Times, "If we do something really disgusting, it’ll sell better than boy-meets-girl".It still takes prostituted people to make porn, no matter what the plot and how much you personally get wet from it.

I do what I can to educate people around me about finding other sexual materials that are not built around female humiliation.That's something for sure, but is it doing enough to buy the organic foods at Walmart? There are people saying Deep Throat is a woman-positive prostitution movie, but it took threatening and sexually torturing a person to make it and that's too unsexy to talk about so almost no one does. The porn industry is built around female humiliation, and you know that's true otherwise you wouldn't promote pro-woman lemonade stands going up in Walmart parking lots suggesting it's the best way to handle the systematized sexist exploitation of women you know is going on inside.

They are aroused by hating women not because of the porn, but because they grew up despising women.That damn anti-woman gene! You'd think there be a pill for that epidemic y-chromosomal defect by now, because nothing boys see & hear on the internet, television, in music, magazines or anythng else in the sexist, porn saturated American consumerist culture them influences their sexist behavior quite like all-natural "growing up" does.

I don't think there's more I can say right now. Thanks for providing this venue and for responding.

2/18/2005

 
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