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Wednesday, December 01, 2004

When they kick in your front door, how you gonna come?

I once jokingly said to a friend that I think they should ban only men from owning guns. “That would even the score, don’t you think?”

He frowned and said that hardly seemed fair to him. I mulled that over and said, “You’re right. Gay men should be able to have guns, too. That would put second thoughts in the heads of gay-bashers.”

Okay, I have a sick sense of humor, but I thought of that entire exchange when reading Rad Geek’s assessment of gun control that he made after reading Condoleeza Rice point out that the right to own guns saved a lot of people’s lives in the tumultuous civil rights era.

I am divided on the gun control issue. On one hand, I see the validity of the standard liberal pro-gun control argument, which is that these things are dangerous and shouldn’t proliferate like they do. I’ve known people to be shot in anger, known people who fired off guns on accident, the whole nine yards. It’s unsettling, to say the least. And for that reason, I don’t keep guns in my house. I simply don’t trust human nature enough.

On the other hand, my opinion on having a gun in my own home would change immediately if I had good reason to fear that I am under attack and I need to protect myself. I’m not, of course. One of the most irritating things about a good number of gun lovers I know is that they often seem certain that the pigs will be kicking down their door any day. The gun culture as it is now is a manifestation of the paranoia of the privileged class—the last people who have cause to fear being rounded up as subversives are the ones most likely to have huge artilleries in their houses. The Klan is not threatening your average militia member.

I’m not in that sort of danger, but some people have reasons to be fearful, and I have to trust, as a freedom-loving sort, that other people are the best judges of their own situations. Call me pro-choice when it comes to guns, then.

But I will say this—from what I can tell, a shotgun really still is the best home defense weapon. Something to consider in the debate over just handguns.

70 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm basically a moderate on the issue, in that I think assault weapons should be banned. The individual's "right to bear arms" doesn't mean "the right to own any weapon up to and including nuclear bombs," after all.

-Linnet

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Roxanne said...

Oh, I think gun nuts just like shooting off guns. Period.

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

The honest ones will tell you that. What's not to like, after all? It's fun to shoot guns, though I really, truly cannot hit the broad side of a barn.

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Ron said...

I agree with the shotgun assesment. Loading a shell makes a nice distinctive sound that will deter most home invaders. If you use bird shot you don't need to aim very precisely & it's very painful, but less lethal. An assult rifle is more of an offensive weapon than a defensive one. I don't have any problem banning them.

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

Amanda: "One of the most irritating things about a good number of gun lovers I know is that they often seem certain that the pigs will be kicking down their door any day. The gun culture as it is now is a manifestation of the paranoia of the privileged class--the last people who have cause to fear being rounded up as subversives are the ones most likely to have huge artilleries in their houses."

I do definitely agree with you here. Gun culture in the United States is creepy and fear-mongering and, not to put too fine a point on it, frequently frankly misogynist and white supremacist. I don't want any part of them (and I don't care to ever own a firearm, personally, if I can avoid it), but at the same time I'm deeply worried about the objective effects that gun control has.

And also, quite frankly, the degree to which white liberals have become comfortable with a political idea that has itself always been driven, historically, by racist fear-mongering (whether explicit--as in the post-Civil War South or in the 1930s, or coded in terms of Uzi-toting gangstas and cop-killers).

Of course, I think there are good arguments against gun control even aside from the historical arguments.

Ron: "An assult rifle is more of an offensive weapon than a defensive one. I don't have any problem banning them."

The rationale behind the Second Amendment (which I happen to agree with) is that a free people should be able to defend themselves by forming a citizen's militia, without the aid of a permanent standing army (which the Founders thought was corrosive to freedom and encouraged dangerous military adventurism). It follows from this that the more a weapon is like the sort of weapons carried by modern soldiers, the more reason you have to bring it under Second Amendment protections, not less. Of course, the Second Amendment isn't a Commandment from God; you might very well think that it ought to be qualified or repealed. But then the argument should be for an appropriate amendment to the Constitution, before any further gun control legislation is passed. I think there are solid Leftist reasons (historical reasons, and philosophical reasons) to hold to the position.

Amanda: "Call me pro-choice when it comes to guns, then."

This is an awesome way to put it. Can I rip it off shamelessly? :)

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

Oh, P.S.:

'He frowned and said that hardly seemed fair to him. I mulled that over and said, "You’re right. Gay men should be able to have guns, too. That would put second thoughts in the heads of gay-bashers."'

Have you encountered The Pink Pistols?

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

That Pink Pistols thing is awesome. Still, I hold firm--the best method of defense is a shotgun, not a handgun. And sure, rip me off shamelessly. ;) I live my life in regards to gun ownership as most pro-choicers live towards abortion. I don't own one, but I think it's a right. I tolerate it cheerfully in my life, and if I needed one, I'd get one.

But I still have issues that I think that 2nd Amendment supporters must deal with. Recently, I had a friend stay over who had too much to drink at a party a block over. In the morning, I was helping him gather his things and I realized he had brought his fucking gun into my house. I was angry--alcohol and guns and my house shouldn't mix. How can these issues be dealt with without resorting to outright bans? His gun is legal. He carries it for legitimate reasons; he has a job that puts him in daily physical danger from criminals.

12/01/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I was angry--alcohol and guns and my house shouldn't mix. How can these issues be dealt with without resorting to outright bans? His gun is legal. He carries it for legitimate reasons; he has a job that puts him in daily physical danger from criminals."You cannot bring a gun to my house. Lock it up at home before you come over, since you're not on the job here."

I think the distinction between the kind of gun control Rice was describing and the kind of gun control that's in effect today is that the earlier type sought to control who owned the guns, while the current rules primarily seek to control what kinds of weapons and how many are owned (other than in the case of banning the ownership of guns by violent felons and people on parole). It's an important distinction, and one that she elides over. I do agree with Rice (and oh, how that pains me to say it) about the kind of gun control she's discussing. The other kind, not so much.

12/01/2004

 
Blogger Ron said...

Rad Geek - Who are these citizen militias going to protect us from in 2004? Invading Canadians? Mexicans? If it's an ATF or FBI agent you feel a need to protect yourself from, you have much bigger problems than more guns would solve. Yes, I am in favor of modifying the 2nd amendment. Until that happens, I'd support most efforts to regulate gun ownership. Living in an urban area of 6 million people, I'd be a lot safer if there were less handguns and automatic rifles around. A friend was shot in the face intentionally and an aunt took one in the chest accidentally. Both lived thankfully.

It seems the Swiss are the ones best able to maintain a safe gun culture. I suspect much of it has to do with the relatively even prosperity of the swiss population. It probably also helps that most recieve some training in gun safety. I don't think it would work here without major social change.

12/02/2004

 
Blogger Charles Johnson (Rad Geek) said...

Ron: "Who are these citizen militias going to protect us from in 2004? Invading Canadians? Mexicans?"

I don't know. Who is the National Guard or the professional Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force going to protect us from? If this is an argument against having a citizen militia it's certainly an argument against having any military force whatever.

In fact I don't think we need any professional military force, so I think that there's nothing wrong with that idea. But that doesn't mean that there is no need for civil defense whatsoever. Military threats to U.S. civilians are few, and would be fewer if we didn't have a professional military being deployed around the world to kill people. But military threats aren't the only threats to be defended against. There is organized crime; there are the night-riders' modern brothers-in-arms, the gay bashers; there is disorganized street violence. Any reason you could cite for having armed police around is just as much of a reason for having individuals, or--if necessary--groups of people working together who are able to defend their lives and their homes. The question is whether the people or a separate, paramilitary police force is a better means to defending people's safety. And I don't think that the historical evidence is unquestionably on the side of the cops. In fact, when you come to defending the rights of Black people, or women, or lesbian and gay people, or transgender people, or Muslims, or Latino/as, or immigrants, or any number of other historically oppressed groups, I think it's decisively against the cops.

"If it's an ATF or FBI agent you feel a need to protect yourself from, you have much bigger problems than more guns would solve."

It's important to note here that I'm proposing citizen militias as an alternative to the cops, the feds, and the army--not as a force to enter into conflict against them. I think that if cops or feds are violating your rights, then you have every right to try to defend yourself, but shoot-outs aren't any kind of strategic way forward. I support the abolition of gun control and peaceful political efforts along with it to reduce the role that military and paramilitary defense forces play in our day-to-day lives.

"Yes, I am in favor of modifying the 2nd amendment. Until that happens, I'd support most efforts to regulate gun ownership."

But Ron, the question is whether "most efforts to regulate gun ownership" that are currently being pushed are legal at all. If you buy my argument about the intent and meaning of the Second Amendment, then it's quite likely that a lot of them aren't, because laws in violation of the Constitution are null and void. So it makes sense to push for an amendment that will limit the Second Amendment protections (although I think that would be a bad idea); and it makes sense (although I again think it would be a bad idea) to push for gun control legislation once that it achieved, but what legal basis is there to support the sort of gun control legislation you want before the amendment is so qualified?

"Living in an urban area of 6 million people, I'd be a lot safer if there were less handguns and automatic rifles around. A friend was shot in the face intentionally and an aunt took one in the chest accidentally. Both lived thankfully."

Gun violence is terrible, to be sure, but I think the issue to confront is the culture of violence and fear that we live in, not the supply of guns (just as the answer to reckless driving is to address the recklessness, not to ban the cars). I live in one of the highest-crime urban areas in the country, but what I see day after day is that gun control regulations don't keep guns out of criminals' hands. They just force ordinary, peace-loving people (especially poor Black people, who have always been the major acknowledged or unacknowledged target of gun control) more dependent on a police force that is often indifferent or sometimes even actively hostile to them.

"It seems the Swiss are the ones best able to maintain a safe gun culture. I suspect much of it has to do with the relatively even prosperity of the swiss population."

I don't think that poor people with guns is the problem. If anyone needs to have access to means to defend themselves, it's poor people in high-crime areas.

"It probably also helps that most recieve some training in gun safety. I don't think it would work here without major social change."

That's fine. I'm all for major social change. Aren't you?

12/02/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

To be fair, Rad, one of the reasons it's so easy to get illegal guns is because there are so many legal guns to steal.

12/02/2004

 
Blogger Ron said...

So when you abolish the cops & the army, who is going to provide a check on the power of the citizen militias? How are you going to stop them from turning into a protection racket? Who is going to solve disagreements by different militias? Abuses of power by the police are very real, but I don't think that is good reason to give the power to a citizen militia answerable to no one.

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Good blog - very interesting!! I liked it so much I'm going to share this hush hush advice with you. Ever wondered how your neighbours are driving around in their brand new BMW or Mercedes cars - with their kids dressed in all the latest named gear and foreign holidays aplenty?? Well they discovered the secret to the extra online income.

If you are looking for a free tool to attract loads of free links to your blog or website then congratulations I've got the solution for you - and it is FREE!!

My website specialises in equity and to drive traffic to my website I was searching around the internet for absolutely ages looking for SEO tools and ffa submission sites to fire my site up the Google search engine - unfortunately these doing work and in fact had the opposite affect plunging my site down the rankings like it had a heavy weight attached!!, then I signed up for this free superb traffic generating tool - I now have loads of hits to my websites/blogs and my site is shooting back up the Google rankings quicker than ever before.

Consequently this saw my affiliate commissions shoot through the roof - meaning lots of extra money coming in for my family - I bought my first Mercedes car on the proceeds of my online campaign.
Sign up now - it's free.
. Sorry if this information is of no use to you but seeing as you have the anonymous feature enabled I thought I should share this free bit of essential promotional advice with you and would hope you would do the same for me and others who want to boost their online internet income.

I hope the tool will serve you equally as well as it has me - it's free!!

Best of luck, cheers for now, dave.
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2/20/2007

 
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