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Monday, January 10, 2005

Do women even like sex? A little bit?

For those who haven't read it, I'd like to point out a great post by Lynn at Noli Irritare Leones about men and women and whether or not they have equal sex drives. This is critical to the "all women are whores", I mean, "women are the product and men the consumers of sex" theory that is so captivating to so many people.

Under the market view of sex, women have to not like sex at all, or at least significantly less, for the theory to work. There's no way around it. We can't be selling our sexuality for money if we want nothing more than men's sex for it. So the purveyors of the women=whores theory spend some effort trying to demonstrate that we're just faking it for the cash. We masturbate less. (Ignore the huge vibrator market.) We don't look at porn. (Ignore romance novels, they screw up the theory.) We are less interested in sleeping with strangers. (Pretend that fear of rape or getting tarred as a slut aren't issues for women.) We brag less. (Again, women can't get their reputations spoiled, so eliminate that as a cause.)

I notice that the biological fact that women are physically insatiable is roundly ignored as well. Guys pop off and are done. Women are up for round 2,3,12, whatever within seconds sometimes. But we gotta make the facts fit the theory.

So what we are left with is a general sense that women like sex less. As Lynn points out, different adolescent experiences are probably the strongest evidence for the "men are hornier" case.

And this is consistent with my experience, where men sure seem to claim a stronger sex drive than women. In fact, it's hard for me to imagine having as strong a sex drive as men are reported as claiming. I can't think why I'd want to masturbate every day, or put a lot of energy into assembling a large collection of, um, material to enhance my masturbation experience; I don't remember being as obsessively controlled by my hormones during my teenage years as some men I know tell me they were during theirs, etc.

But, as Avedon so rightly points out, part of the problem is that men's sexual feelings are named as such, so they have a better understanding of their bodies. Women's sexual feelings are routed into other avenues, especially as adolescents:

It reminds me of a remark Avedon Carol once made about how when she was younger she thought she didn't think much about sex, and then she came to realize that she simply wasn't seeing her thoughts about sex - she was seeing them as being about the relationship, some particular person, or whatever, even though they did, after all, involve sex.

Indeed. When I was in high school, I remember quite vividly that boys were pretty much encouraged to label their sexual feelings as such. Boys were downright darling in the way that they offered emotional support to each other during our teenage years, bragging about masturbating and labeling this girl or that girl "hot". I also remember a girl asking me earnestly if it's true that girls masturbate, and I told her not really, though frankly I wasn't so sure. Girls have trouble sometimes even knowing, because there is no one to talk to about how to masturbate or what an orgasm feels like and frankly, because there's not any "evidence" that they've gotten there.

The biggest problem is shame. Being attracted to boys was something that was only discussed amongst the girls I knew as an ethereal thing, really. Oh, we talked about sex, but only in the culturally approved terms where sex was something done to us or something we held back from in order to get respect. Speaking of yourself as a sexual agent was the verboten subject. I remember reading a magazine aimed at teenage girls where someone wrote into an advice column wondering if something was wrong with her because she made out with her boyfriend and her panties got damp. I have no idea if the question was made up, but my friends and I were appalled. This, we said, never happened to us. We were probably all lying; I know I was.

With all this shame and embarrassment, is it any wonder that women routinely report well into adulthood that they really, well, don't have those feelings? Even nowadays, young women don't often know the language to name their feelings. Of course they can't express them. And practice makes perfect. Women are behind the sexual curve much of their lives, especially if they live in subcultures where sexual experimentation is discouraged throughout their lives, which is probably most subcultures still in America.

And we think that when women report having less sexual feelings, it must be biology.

I sincerely doubt that teenage girls are less awash in hormones than teenage boys. Ever seen video footage of a bunch of girls screaming and carrying on for a teen pop star. S-U-B-L-I-M-A-T-I-O-N.

When men and women have their sexuality treated with equal respect, then we can start saying that we have authentic measures of natural-born differences between men and women's sex drives.

392 Comments:

Blogger Trish said...

"We don't look at porn. (Ignore romance novels, they screw up the theory.)"

Not necessarily. I write supernatural romance, and there's a big market for it. I'm getting acceptance letters and money coming in for it. Romance, including supernatural romance, can have lots of great sex scenes in it, and women lap it up.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger Anne said...

Trish, I think that's what Amanda was saying, albeit sarcastically.

Girls have trouble sometimes even knowing, because there is no one to talk to about how to masturbate or what an orgasm feels like and frankly, because there's not any "evidence" that they've gotten there. When I was in school, esp. in middle and high school, it was absolutely taboo to say anything about female sexual pleasure, let alone your own.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger Anne said...

Elementary school too, obviously. I'm tired and I phrased that all wonky.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger Phila said...

I've never seen the slightest evidence that women are less sexual than men, and I've known plenty of women who put the horniest man I know (me?) to shame in terms of drive and avidity.

Commentators on this stuff often fail to consider how things are done in different social strata. I spent my teens 'til my thirties in bohemian circles, where people tended to be fairly open about things. If a woman wanted to have sex, she'd tell you in no uncertain terms. If she wanted a vibrator used on her, or something stuck in this hole or that one, she'd be pretty assertive about it. And my female friends, on the whole, have been a lot more open about discussing their masturbation techniques with me than any of my male friends have!

On the other hand, I've also known some women who were totally different. Some simply didn't have a strong sex drive; some disliked the exhibitionist approach of the more wild gals, and consciously sought to seem prim out of contrariness; some had specific sexual fears or problems; some were simply very private people.

What this suggests to me is that there's no such thing as "female" sexuality...there's just sexuality, and a wide range of responses to it that cut across gender lines. Where people find strong statistical evidence to the contrary, I think it has to do mainly with societal factors...social expectations, mostly. Here's one example: if I compare national figures on women who like anal sex to what I know from mysef and my male and female acquaintances, there's a huge disparity, and that obviously suggests that the difference is cultural (even if only in the sense that people raised a certain way are more likely not to admit having done a particular thing).

In some circles, I've seen women act far more "slutty" than they actually are; in others, I've seen women act more uptight than they actually are. Obviously, that's true of men, too. But no one's going to convince me that there's an essential physiological distinction between male and female sexuality; to reach that conclusion, you'd have to study a society in which men and women had had identical social roles for several generations...and there really aren't any of those around! I think that in a truly egalitarian society, in which sexual stigmas either didn't exist or were applied equally, a lot of the alleged sexual differences would evaporate.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger yami mcmoots said...

Meh. I think there is a way out of it, which you touched on when you talked about fear of being tarred as a slut. Sex is just riskier for women than for men (in the age of effective birth control this is largely for social reasons), and it's standard economics to note that greater risks must be accompanied by greater rewards. Multiple orgasms are a pretty great reward, but I don't think they make up for the rates of rape in this country.

Yeah, the original discussion was within the context of marriage, which is pretty damn low-risk sex...and at that point the market theory really does require frigid women. But "horny whores" would be consistent with a market theory of short term relationships, anyway.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger Avedon said...

Not many people ask men what their sexual fantasies are about, either. For obvious reasons, I've done this a bit, and though at first they mostly just tell you about the sex parts - fucking, sucking, and if they're comfortable with you maybe they'll talk about a fetish or something - but if you dig deeper you learn that a lot of it isn't actually about the sexy bits at all so much as the cuddly bits, even holding hands.

Ask guys who are past the adolescent frenzy stuff and they'll also tell you they miss the virginal stuff they used to do with girlfriends, the "necking" that could never result in sex. And ask them what stuff they don't like now, and you'll often hear complaints that women jump up to do hygiene stuff too fast instead of enjoying the afterglow together.

In other words, they actually like the stuff we like, but they are less prone to feel like they're supposed to say so. And vice-versa.

As to girls - I can't tell you how dissapointed I was to learn that highschool-aged women today say exactly the same sort of prudish, judgmental stuff I used to hear when I was in highschool. I know we're always reading about how wild sex is so normal in schools these days, but when you talk to them they are still saying stupid things about not having birth control because it would be too much like you were planning to have sex, and some girl being a slut because she didn't stick to the same boyfriend forever, etc. It's depressing.

1/10/2005

 
Blogger shannon said...

Thanks for pointing that out- I don't think a study that said that women are the more carnal sex because of their greater use of masturbation aids(such as dildos, vibrators) as compared to men (who have like what? the fleshlight?) would become so popularized.

And it annoys me when I hear women even in college judging other women on their sexuality. I was in this carpool for volunteer stuff and this girl was going on and on about how she wouldn't associate with this girl because she had sex with too many fratboys? I mean seriously, would anyone shun a guy for hooking up too much?

Shannon
http://www.cassowarybuttons.com

1/10/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Being around gaggles of teenage girls daily teaches you to be very wary about talking of yourself as a sexual being. They praise boys as "hot", but mention what you'd like to do to one of them and you're frozen out pretty quickly.

thisgirl

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also agree with others here who have said that from what I've seen of this discussion here, little has changed in many years on the topic. That's very depressing on too many different levels too. Why are we having this conversation? There IS research out there on female sexual desire, both in biological and many social contexts. There's poetry, erotica, memoirs, histories AND Herstories out there to be read and to glean from. Why all this obsession with theory and Andrea Dworkin of all people? Why not start with the poetry or personal memoir and work up from there? Would this not be a great place for a teen to start?


Reading the comments on this thread and others makes me dispair that we'll ever learn anything of ourselves and our innate biology. I mean most of this crap could have been written in the 1950's in a Dear Abby letter. (And it certainly was!) There's been a revolution in feminist scholarship since then and on Feminist blogs you folks seem to be somehow wholly Oblivious to this decades long tradition of inquiry and research. Market economics may have just a bit to do with marriage 'markets', but even that is a bit tenuous for most people. And NO real life is often NOT quite like TV either. That's ficton, and often a poor proxy for human relations too.


I also think the way we think and talk about this topic is also very class and contextually bound as others have noted. Shame does not enter into the picture for many people. We no longer live in small isolated communities where your rep. would follow you to the grave with that scarlet 'A'/'S' or 'H'. And if so, you might just be able to pull out a short but productive career out of it. (See: Pop stars for $200, Alex). I'm just absolutely depressed and flabergasted that a bunch of college educated people can sit down and re-argue this BS as if this was 1973 once again and no one had read Betty Freidan et al. Do we have to reinvent the wheel every damn 20 years because we live in a post literate society? Do a google on it. READ a bit about sex, then make up your own NEW theories about how it works best for you and where you're at. Go to the library and do the same. Jeez people! Stop navel gazing already, the Brown shirts are marching outside your window. They know what sex is to be used for...Their kind of conception of it anyway!

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Pseudo-Adrienne said...

"...Why all this obsession with theory and Andrea Dworkin of all people?..."

I thought Andrea *hated* sex, especially heterosexual sex? And the so called "theory" is important in understanding what drives women's sexuality. Is it social, biological, or both, none of them, or something else? That's what the theory is about; why women even have sex and do we even like it? We're just trying to figure out the whole "women are whores" theory and why society still seems to think that women ONLY have sex for security.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Elayne said...

Doesn't this whole sex drive thing also have something to do with age? The way I learned it, women reach their "sexual peak" at a much older period in their lives than men (it's something like 18 years old for men and 40 for women). So it would seem that comparing teenaged boys to teenaged girls in terms of sexual interest is almost like apples and oranges.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I think Anon is accusing those of us at Feminist Blogs for not reading enough and being prudes. I think....

Anon, we're still fighting the battles because not that much progress has been made. But I assure you, I neither said the work "Dworkin", nor am I a prude. My point is that I had an uphill battle growing up, since feminism hasn't quite affected West Texas teens the way it might have some of us.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I think that women "peak" later is primarily due to being behind the curve. It takes years and years for most women still to get over the shame of wanting sex.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger zuzu said...

It can also take years of fumbling, male-orgasm-centered sex to figure out what works for women and how to ask for it.

Though it did seem like a switch was flipped when I turned 30 and I wanted to hump everything in sight.

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, my friends and I felt comfortable talking about sex in a graphic and active manner back in early-'80s Iowa, but we were a bunch of feminist punks/geeks. Admittedly, we were a bit hazy on the details, but we were more in the realm of theory than practice.

Once some of us started dating, I think this openness started disappearing. I think some of it was that we felt the need to think of sex like teenage guys do, which is pretty narrow (and that narrowness may be forced upon them to some degree by our culture). And, Lord, we did not ever think about sharing our openness with the boys!

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Tammy said...

Before I had a baby, I would have agreed whole-heartedly with most everything you've said here. But my sex drive, and the sex drive of every recently post-partum woman I know, definitely took a big dive after I had a baby. The hormones involved in breastfeeding, in particular, can really put a ding in desire. For many women it can take months to come back.

Men don't experience physical and hormonal changes when they have babies. With this new persepctive, my guess is that over the course of their lives, women do have lower sex drives than men, because they're likely to experience periodic dips related to childrearing.

Still agree with most everything you've said about our culture and it's views, though.

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I couldn't help but register a big, "Whaaa--at?" while reading this. Perhaps I come from a radically different subculture than the rest of the people here, but I think most of the people I know generally assume that women are hornier than men by a long shot. At the very least, they're much more open about it and communicate it much more. My female friends talk about horniness, sex toys, masturbation, sexual flings, erotic play with dedicated partners, oral sex, anal sex and just about any other sexual topic I can think of *far* more than any of my male friends, with more pride and openness and with significantly more support of the rest of the community.

Even moving out of the circle of people I know in person, it would take several times my available fingers to count the number of women whose journals and blogs have spawned off "sex journals", have sex filters, have sexy-photo pictures, etc. Even without such separate journals and blogs as a safety mechanism, almost every day I see a woman on my web reading list announce that they're just plain horny and they can't get it off their minds. The number of men I know who have such filters, side-blogs, photo filters or who make such announcements, that I can recall? Well, it's somewhere between one and negative one, if that helps to narrow it down.

Try going to the erotica section of a *mainstream* bookstore (say, Chapters or Indigo in Canada, or I guess in the U.S. you have Barnes and Noble) and look up the erotica section (rather than the romance section). Ever seen a man browsing the section? Notice that 99% of the books target women? Do the women look furtive when they buy them? (Not that I've noticed.)

I've long realized that the population as a whole and the segment of it that I inhabit are perhaps not macro/microcosms of each other, but still, I find myself wondering to what degree the idea that women's sexuality is repressed and that men slap each other on the backs and talk about last night's great masturbation is just a continuing social myth, spread both both sides of the argument through repetition.

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

After being raped I noticed a huge drop in my sex drive. Who can know what is "natural" when girls and women around the world live under constant threat of sexual attack by boys and men, sexual attack specifically meant to keep us sexually 'obedient' to men?

I find Andrea Dworkin's writings about sexuality a thousand times more reaffirming of my own woman's sexuality than anything corporate media has ever produced. I tried reading lesbian erotica but saw the same old dominant-submissive hierarchical power games played out and it made me wonder if women will ever be able to define female sexuality for ourselves, not through the porny male lens that saturates our culture to women's detriment. Lesbian sexuality is exploited more as a tool for men to get themselves off with than it is for lesbians to get themselves off with. Right now, women's sex is not their own.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Anon, I think a lot of women deliberately speak out because of a combination of the giddy rush of finally being able to do so now that we're adults and also to get the message out there that female sexuality is nothing to be ashamed of.

But for most Americans, no. Flip on a TV and start counting leers and shaming statements and you'll see what I mean by what passes for mainstream nowadays.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Kayla said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/11/2005

 
Blogger Elinor said...

Andrea Dworkin doesn't hate sex.I don't think she even hates hetero sex as such. Her objection to intercourse seems to have more to do with the way sex is defined by intercourse (i.e. non-penetrative sex is "not sex") and intercourse imagined and described in terms of conquest and possession, which means it backs up the existing power dynamic. (I haven't read the whole book, but that's what the excerpts I've read suggest to me.)

Not that I necessarily agree with her, but it's incorrect to say she believes sex is bad.

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's be a bit provocative here shall we?
Adrea Dworkin talking about the joys of sex is a bit like Bush (oh any 2 legged Bush beast) talking about integrity. You know that in theory they must understand a bit on the topic, but in practice as something most would recognize as such, it's a concept that seems increasingly very remote from their experience. And they've both got fierce defenders who will tell you that their concept is the only real one that exists and all others are bogus and suspect. Both would willingly and gleefully lock you up for this error.



Pick up any of the writings of Dworkin, look for the words or concepts of 'joy' 'pleasure' 'delight' or even 'satisfaction'. You're not going to find it easily, and probably buried in tons of verbiage over burdening the concept with, yes some very arcane theory that will sound foreign to upwards of 90% of her intended audience. It gets no better in her lectures really. Richard Feynman might have been able to explain Quantum Electrodynamics to lay people in UC lecture halls, but Dworkin could at best offer slightly amusing but generally unhelpful snarky responses on sex where ever she goes. If you want to kill any desire for any human contact for at least 48hrs, *Guaranteed* read her books aloud to your prospective partner. [I know, that's so unfair, but it's still true!]Granted her writings have something to say about power relations and rape in particular. But for most of us, that's like using a telescope to drive a car. It can be done with great difficulty, but it's just not the right tool for the job.


I mention her (AD) due to the fact that I at least came in on the Feminist Blogs conversation on the same topic. I think female desire needs less theory than it does action. Get out there and find something that feels good and right for you. If it does not work out,
try again, and by all means try it on yourself first.
[Calling Betty Dobson, Dr. Betty are you still here??]
I mean really people, you're depressing the hell out of us in the older generation. I mean you even had all the words for all your parts too. Geez that was not discovered (OK Re-Discovered) until 'Our Bodies, Ourselves' became an underground hit.

And I agree with Anon in Canada(?), people are really kinky Everywhere. Even in the wilds of West & East TX. You just need to know the right people. Ever hear of 'Hippie Hollow' in MO? 'Lake of the Woods' I think. I mean a bunch of 'clothing optional' hippie kids in MO, so why not TX??

Geez, I really feel like a motivational life coach here too! Anon J in Deepest Darkest Ga.

1/12/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Damnit, Mouse Words is supposed to be the blog where we laugh about MSN advice columns and mock West Texan state legislators and the like! If we're going to have a big, serious discussion of Dworkin, Brownmiller, the future of feminist thought, and the true and false dichotomies between 2nd and 3rd wave feminism, then we should be on Alas or something!

Julian Elson

1/12/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I have to say I'm amused. First by Anon's firm belief that Dworkin is obliged to write how-to sex manuals and also by the belief that I'm in tut-tut mode. Dammit, read the post! It's about what a shame it is that women are always playing catch-up, especially since we have as much sexual desire than men.

1/12/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hold on a second.

I think women like sex. I really do.

But I think it's an entire different type of "like"

Men, I think, have to have sex. The sexual urge is something they are compelled to do. It is uncomfortable to go too long without having sex - it can even be painful. Going too long without sex, for men, is like holding it in when you have to go to the bathroom. Sure, sex for men feels nice, but it's mosly about *relief from pressure* that the male sex drive is made of.

Men like sex the way that they like food--after they've been starving in the desert.

On the other hand - and I don't know this for certain, but this is only what I've gathered from the women I know. I'm sexually inexperienced, and chances are I just end up dating prudes.

Women like sex because it's something good. It's fun, it's pleasurable. But if they don't get sex? That's not a big deal. A woman without sex might long for it, the same way that a guy who moves inland from the shore might long for the ocean. But to them, sex is a positive. Sex is a plus.

It's like chocolate cake. Something really good that you don't need to have all the time.

In short, the joy of male sex comes from removing pressure and tension, while the joy of female sex comes from adding orgasmic feelings.

Or am I off on this?

4/14/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...I think you are a little off, and over-generalizing a bit.

5/14/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't believe this theory is an issue about women 'liking' sex as much as it is about (reading between the lines of the theory) that women USE SEX, etc., to their advantages. After all, prostitution is what....oh yeah!....the worlds oldest profession. CHEERS.

5/18/2005

 
Anonymous Devinder said...

i like the article. intresting approach, and it sounds logical in its viewpoint.

6/12/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm enormously dissapointed to find out that women are less prone to sex than I would like to believe. Having been reading this topic for a while now, I came to the conclusion that it may be conceivable that most women are less "hot" than us men. To back up my new believe: we wouldn't have to discussion on this tread about women's sexuality. It would be quiet obvious if women were on the treets looking for guys to pay, so that they can release burning sexual pressure.But that is not the case, not where I live anyway. By the fact that some women make excusses not to sleep with their parteners may be another hint. I know women don't always tell the whole truth not even sometimes to themselves, but hey, this day and age the anonimity of the internet would at least make it possible that women's admision of their sexuality would challenge any wrongfully held views. Obviously, we know that is not the case or at least not the majority.

Dammit!me personaly, due to the fact that I grow up in a different subculture (as you may have noticed from may english), where it's the believe that women are honier than men, I fantesized being the super-hero "Mr P..Y" who is gonna take away all those "unfulfiled desires and hang overs". I peaked quiete early sexualy, so many years I had that "noble" mission in may head. Now I know that a par of chocolate may do the trick for some women, it puts me off the whole relationship thing. Cos let me be honest, being bachelor, I have been learning many years from any source available to be best lover any woman could ever have, yet it's not enough. To the opossite gender sex is something to do for pleasure not for need. If to get lucky with a women depends unpridictable hormones, F..K it! I don't want to feel my entire life somebody who is forcing "p@@r human being" to do what is not on their top three list.

6/22/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some people still don't quite get the point it seems.

6/26/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I mean seriously, would anyone shun a guy for hooking up too much?"

Yes...

7/17/2005

 
Blogger Jah'ahn said...

No, women are not less sexual than men.

It's worth pointing out that women perpetuate this myth as much as anyone else, as usual with with gender stereotypes.

"Men are pigs! They're like animals! Noting but sex, sex, sex on their minds!"

How often do we hear such statements?

A casual observer would certainly conclude that women's "sex drive" was lower.

Theorists say that, over the millions of years leading up to Homo sapiens, men and women developed strategies for dealing with finding partners.

Men, in order to ensure progeny, spread their seed far and wide. It is in their interest to do so.

Women, on the other hand, get stuck with the baby, and there is never any doubt about who the mother is.

Therefore, it is in women's interest to find a stable, reliable partner before hitting the sack with somebody. Then there will be someone around to help provide.

In this age of easy contraception, we tend to forget this salient fact. It is an instinct, honed over millions of years, already in place in the time of Pitheocantherapus erectus, before Homo sapiens ever even evolved.

Also, the basic logic is skewed. Like this:

-Liking sex means having several partners.

-Men often have more partners than women

-Therefore, men like sex more.

But...does having more partners mean liking sex more?

Does a man who beds three women on three nights like sex more than a woman who screws her ONE partner on those same three nights?

Ralph had sex three times on three nights and so did Sue. Does this mean Ralph has a higher sex drive???

Why does the multiplicity of partners automatically mean higher sex drive?

In a study done years ago, it was found that men and women spend equal amounts of time looking at strangers of the opposite sex.

This defies the stereotype, but there is a reason: Men look at many female strangers for short periods of time, and women pick out one stranger and look at him for a longer time.

We cannot know, of course, the certain answer about differences in sex drives and sexual pleasure. The only solution would be the one mentioned by Robert Heinlein: Transplanting the brain of a male into the body of a female, or vice versa.

And to tell you the truth, it seems a tad extreme.

7/29/2005

 
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