Screw it, let's talk about sex
Stealing for Gilliard's blog again, but this time it's his friend Jen writing about how much it really sucks when guys have the nerve to claim that they don't go down.
"Hi Moxie,I recently began sleeping with a guy I've known for a few years. We've hooked up only a few times. The sex is great, but he never goes down on me. But I always go down on him. He's always trying to get me to take his penis in my mouth when we fool around, but he never reciprocates.What does this mean?"
He's a dick. It should also mean that is the last time he gets a blow job. The admin from the site she quotes is much nicer, but same idea.
I am reminded of Chris Rock's routine about women who won't go down, that they are like Betamax. "They still make you?" It goes both ways. I am honestly amazed that guys in my generation have the nerve to shame girls about our genitals in order to save a little time and effort. I shouldn't be, I guess. I remember high school oh too well and hearing guys gasp in horror that girls have the nerve to sweat and wear pants when the pussies that they want might get a tad damp from these activities. But now, I will hear a guy tell a long, drawn-out story about nearly dying from thigh clamp long before I hear a guy shame himself by acting like there's something to be proud of when you want to fuck girls but you don't want them to like it.
As usual, I still wonder if I really am surprisingly sheltered in Austin. But I think that some of my surprise that the won't eat pussy crew still exists comes from just my all-over unwillingness to hang out with people who are sticks in the mud. Live, dammit! When I was a kid, my dad spent a good amount of effort trying to turn me into a curious person who tried to get the most out of life, and a big part of this was steering me away from picky eating. He would tease me and cajole me away from picky eating as a kid, implying correctly that diverse tastes would make it easier for me to meet and charm interesting people. When I wouldn't budge, he would blindfold me before feeding me, so I couldn't judge food on its appearances.
Subsequently, I have some disdain for picky eaters. And that goes double for men who claim they like pussy but won't lay tongue to it.
posted by Amanda Marcotte at
17.1.05
52 Comments:
It should also mean that is the last time he gets a blow job.Well, once she's properly communicated her wishes, if he is unwilling to work on it, then she should dump his ass, not just refuse to suck him off. Unless he has TMJ or some psychological issue, he is just being selfish. And you shouldn't date selfish people, period.
I have a theory that a man who doesn't like licking pussy almost certainly hates women in general.
1/17/2005
True, but getting dumped does hurt the oral sex chances. My sneaky side cheers on women who respond by becoming suddenly non-demonstrative, and/or cheating, but as usual, I am far too mean-spirited or perverse to be a role model.
1/17/2005
And if they use vaginal beauty standards as an excuse, see how they deal with itchy red bumps and nicks all over their nads.
1/17/2005
I don't think they care about that. It's generally either a weird thing about Girl Parts Are Gross or they're selfish, lazy asshats.
(For a few it's a genuine and understandable psychological thing--I do know at least one person who was sexually abused as a child and thus has an aversion to oral sex. That's way different than "do me but I won't do you.")
1/17/2005
I was puzzled when my second lover would keep turning down offers of oral sex. As it turned out, she'd had no idea what cunnilingus was until she experienced it. She'd been assuming I meant fellatio.
The guys she'd had sex with before were incredible jerks. Even so, it stunned me that she'd had no idea that the practice existed.
1/18/2005
While I tend to agree with zuzu's question, it's also really difficult to take statements like "I have a theory that a man who doesn't like licking pussy almost certainly hates women in general" seriously.
There are all sorts of reasons why a man or woman might not want to go down--and while it probably does betray a large deal of ignorance when a guy says no to going down (especially when he says yes to being on the receiving end of things), ignorance doesn't always equal hate.
Men need to be taught this stuff, or 'untaught' other stuff.
1/18/2005
... ignorance doesn't always equal hate.That's why I used the word "generally". And no, eating pussy doesn't need to be taught (although you may have a point that avoiding the practice may have to be untaught in some limited circumstances); people know how to do oral sex instinctively.
If you like the person you're with, most likely you're going to go down on them. Liking them usually involves liking their gender. Nothing more feminine than a wet pussy, right? If a guy can't bring himself to stick his face in a woman's crotch no matter how many women he has sex with, then (absent some unusual factor, like I said) he almost certainly has something against women. Seems blindingly obvious to me.
1/18/2005
I don't think anything about human sexuality is instinctive, except perhaps the tendency to develop sexual desires. The actual operations involved all have to be learned.
The first several times I had sex, it was terribly awkward. I was shocked that what I'd assumed would be easy and obvious wasn't easy or obvious at all. It didn't come naturally. And everyone I've talked to about their first sexual experiences described it like that: they expected it to come naturally, and it didn't.
I suppose I might have eventually hit upon the idea of oral sex through experimentation, if I hadn't read about it, and if my first lover hadn't described what she wanted to do. But I certainly didn't have an instinct for it. My second lover had no idea that cunnilingus was an option. I don't like fellatio. I'm not seeing any instinct in any of this.
1/18/2005
Indeed, real-time feedback is invaluable, especially since making eye contact is a little tricky.
1/18/2005
I have a wonderful boyfriend, who won't go down on me. Doesn't like the texture. On the other hand, I get out of giving him blow jobs (ick!).
And the orgasms he gives me vaginally are far, far, far more mindblowing than any of the ones I used to have from cunnilingus.
Do I miss having someone go down on me? NO!
1/18/2005
I would call it a learned behavior, albeit one that common sense and curiosity will drive people to try. Linn, that's a toughie. God knows it's not something you want to argue about, but I guess you could just ask for it every time you get nekkid and hope she takes a hint.
1/18/2005
Mithras--
(I'll leave the rebuttal to your 'oral sex is instinctual' argument to the rest of the crew, who have handled it basically like I would have.)
Actually, you didn't use the word 'generally'. You said "...hates women in general", which would mean something entirely different than generalizing about men's behaviour. If you had said "Men generally...blah, blah," that would be one thing, but you said that your theory is that men who don't go down "hate women in general." I am disagreeing.
On the other hand, when you say "If you like the person you're with, most likely you're going to go down on them," I would tend to agree. But that doesn't entail that if you don't go down on them that you hate them. You have to offer up some evidence for that point.
Then you say, " Liking them usually involves liking their gender." Again, true enough. But, again, this doesn't entail that NOT liking them (or not liking going down on them) means HATING their gender.
Then you say, "Nothing more feminine than a wet pussy, right?" Well, I'll let that stand as is, though I'm sure there are some people that wouldn't like thier gender to be best represented by their genitals.
Then you say, "If a guy can't bring himself to stick his face in a woman's crotch no matter how many women he has sex with, then (absent some unusual factor, like I said) he almost certainly has something against women." You're not reaching a conclusion here, but rather simply restating what you think is true, without offering up an argument for it.
Again, I'll offer some alternatives. Perhaps he's screwed up about it because at one point he was told he sucked at it by somebody who wasn't helpful about that fact. Maybe he's inhibited sexually in general, and has been taught that such things are 'out there'. Maybe he's afraid of Hep C and is too insecure to talk to his lover about it. All of these are crappy reasons, I'll grant you--but that was my point--the guy in question may have had all sorts of reasons, bad though they may be--that have nothing to do with him HATING WOMEN IN GENERAL.
I think a lot of men do hate women in general. But I don't think not going down is a way to flag those guys. It's a way to flag guys who have problems with their own sexuality, maybe, and among those problems might be hatred of women, but your original claim was far too inclusive to be believable.
And about things being blindingly obvious--just because you think it's obvious doesn't make it blindingly obvious to everybody, or even anybody, else. I'm claiming it's not blindingly obvious, for the reasons I originally gave, and for the reasons above.
1/18/2005
I think, one way or another, we can all agree that a man who won't has absorbed the cultural message that women and women parts are disgusting.
1/18/2005
Brian-
I don't think anything about human sexuality is instinctive, except perhaps the tendency to develop sexual desires. The actual operations involved all have to be learned.People seem to figure out how to fuck without lessons just fine. If that were not true, humans would have died out long ago.
1/18/2005
Actually, Amanda, when you say, "I think, one way or another, we can all agree that a man who won't has absorbed the cultural message that women and women parts are disgusting," that's just the sort of thing that I'm disagreeing with.
In some cases it may simply be a preference. I think there should be room for this possibility. Some people don't like oral sex in general (I know, I know, they're repressed and such, but that doesn't mean they hate the other gender, or even that they think it's disgusting--maybe they just don't like it.)Does everybody commenting here think that a woman who doesn't like to go down on a guy thinks that men are disgusting? How about a woman who doesn't like to go down on other women? Sometimes it's just a preference.
Now, it may be the case that the whole 'oh, that's gross' idea is fairly common among those guys who don't like to go down (how many of them can there be, really?). But I think it's just as likely that a guy who won't go down won't go down for the reasons that I've stated before. Sure, such a guy is screwed up, has issues and the like with his own sexuality, but that doesn't mean that he things women and 'women parts' are disgusting. I'm not particularly a 'boob man'(ok, I'm setting myself up there), but that doesn't mean that I hate women, or even that I think boobs are disgusting.
1/18/2005
Mithras, yes, people usually figure it out, eventually, often after considerable disappointment and misery. But if something's an instinct, you don't have to figure it out.
Humans would also have died out if we didn't manage to feed ourselves. That doesn't mean that foraging and hunting, or farming and herding, are instinctive.
1/18/2005
Does everybody commenting here think that a woman who doesn't like to go down on a guy thinks that men are disgusting? How about a woman who doesn't like to go down on other women?Actually, yes. Women I know who don't go down generally will disparage penises themselves. For all the mighty phallic imagery in the world, there is an underbelly where people are taught to be disgusted by all sexual parts, male or female. I have seen a whole lotta porn in my time, too, and I know that there are plenty of videos where you can tell that the thrill of oral sex for some men (albeit a small minority) is that they think it's humiliating to make a woman take that disgusting thing in her mouth. And who hasn't heard a man wonder in earnest how women can like men, what with their gross bodies?
For the record, I strongly disagree that men or women have gross bodies. I like men's bodies. A lot.
1/18/2005
Ok. So when the women you know who won't go down and disparage the penises themselves, do you think that they hate men, in the way that Mithras states that men who don't go down on women hate women?
I talked to a close female friend last night who put things slightly better than I probably have been doing. When I asked her if she thought that a guy who won't go down on a woman is showing that he hates women, she said, "No, not necessarily. It would make me suspicious, but that alone can't mean he hates women."
I'll back up to that position, because it represents better the spirit of what I was saying regarding Mithras' comments.
The reason I keep sort of pushing this, even though it appears Mithras has gone away on this one, is that blanket statements about men's hatred of women, when they don't seem to apply, take away from the usefulness of such statements when they do apply--which is probably pretty frequently. Mithras' original comment amounts to a kind of 'pop feminism' which I'm kind of trying to resist here, because it undermines the more interesting claims of feminism.
Not that talk about oral sex isn't interesting.
1/19/2005
Ok. So when the women you know who won't go down and disparage the penises themselves, do you think that they hate men, in the way that Mithras states that men who don't go down on women hate women?
I talked to a close female friend last night who put things slightly better than I probably have been doing. When I asked her if she thought that a guy who won't go down on a woman is showing that he hates women, she said, "No, not necessarily. It would make me suspicious, but that alone can't mean he hates women."
I'll back up to that position, because it represents better the spirit of what I was saying regarding Mithras' comments.
The reason I keep sort of pushing this, even though it appears Mithras has gone away on this one, is that blanket statements about men's hatred of women, when they don't seem to apply, take away from the usefulness of such statements when they do apply--which is probably pretty frequently. Mithras' original comment amounts to a kind of 'pop feminism' which I'm kind of trying to resist here, because it undermines the more interesting claims of feminism.
Not that talk about oral sex isn't interesting.
1/19/2005
I know I'm coming late to this discussion.
I think that what people like and don't like to do when it comes to sex is very personal and probably unexplainable. Who knows the myriad factors and experiences that shape our sexual preferences? It's up to the two partners to come to an agreement between them as to what they want to do together. If a guy refuses a reasonable request and won't talk about why, there seems to be a serious breakdown in communication.
A guy is a jerk if he refuses to consider or discuss his partner's wishes, but I think it's a stretch to conclude that he must hate women. Maybe he's just selfish or lazy, or too shy, or scared. Maybe he *is* grossed out, but that's probably because of some learned prejudice that can be unlearned if one takes the time to unteach it.
I once saw a woman on TV (!! Why?) say she wouldn't perform oral sex on her husband because she thought it was gross, and she struck me as being like a kid who refuses to eat broccoli even though s/he has never actually tasted it.
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