Mouse rant blog vent mouse.

Tuesday, March 01, 2005

The death penalty divide

Today's news that the Supreme Court found, at an alarmingly close margin of 5-4, that it's unconstitutional to execute minors has caused a great deal of rejoicing amongst us liberals, who have little cause to rejoice lately. A bunch of people sent the news to me in my email with a note of relief attached. I'm relieved, too. But the spoilsport in me immediately knew that this was going to be one of those court decisions where people were going to fall along partisan lines quickly and not much communication would happen.

The first email I got today about the decision specifically refuted and rebelled against Scalia's angry dissent that outright stated that Americans are backing away from supporting the death penalty because we are afraid of what a bunch of foreigners think of us. My friend said that we were finally in line with the rest of the world on at least one issue. In a sense, I agree with him, but only because I think the majority of the Western opinion on this issue is right. But the stubborn side of me, the Bubba side, immediately revolted against the notion that we should conform to world opinion just because.

I know that my fellow liberals don't actually think that we should conform to world opinion. World opinion is something we lean on in many cases because it's a lighthouse in the storm, a way for us to recognize that once you step outside of the onslaught of conservative propaganda, reality is a lot easier to see. By pointing to world opinion, we aren't saying that we should conform for its own sake. But to be liberal in America is to be told that you are out of the mainstream and so it's both comforting and revealing to point out that we are with a mainstream in the world, a mainstream that has access to truths many Americans don't know.

This decision not to execute minors is mentally linked, for me and I'll bet for many others, with the issue of torturing our prisoners in the War on Terror, or if you prefer like I do, War on People with Resources We Want to Confiscate. Predicatably, the denials that we are torturing prisoners quickly turned into painful justifications for torture. How are the two similiar? Well, it's pretty simple--try to make a nuanced argument against the execution of minors, much less the death penalty itself, or against torturing terrorist "suspects" and face down a bunch of counter-arguments that you support murder or terrorism itself.

Well, or that you're a wuss. That's the most common argument, that we liberals are weak-willed and are too muddy-brained with sympathy for our fellow human beings to see that some people need killing. Or torturing.

The hard part is that many of the liberal persuasion probably are sensitive human beings whose emotional reaction to execution or torture really does stop them cold. Or they are hardasses who know all too well that give an inch to torture of enemies of the state leads to the callous insanity of the Holocaust. I am not picking on them. But I am offering that many of us have entirely different reasons for our opposition to state-sponsored torture and death.

I was pained to read an all too typical conservative viewpoint that implied that anti-death penalty opponents don't "get" the severity of murder at Hugo's blog.

Not so for Christopher Simmons, who plotted both the burglary and the murder with two younger friends specifically because he wanted to murder somebody, and because he thought they could all get away with it because they were under 18. He then broke into a random house in the middle of the night looking for someone to murder, stumbled across a woman he happened to recognize, tied her up, threw her over a bridge, drowned her, and bragged to his friends about having killed a woman because "the bitch seen my face."

CMC, if you want to be the guinea pig and have Mr. Simmons live in YOUR neighborhood as part of his rehabilitation, be my guest. Just make sure your new neighbor doesn't get anywhere near my neighborhood.

Anyway, I think it's just a shame that this misconception about death penalty opponents--that we have undue sympathy for monsters--persists. I personally don't care if someone who commits crimes like this is killed by being skinned alive. But there's a reason that this commenter wowed us with the horror of the crime rather than impressed us with the evidence in this fact. Horrific crime makes us demand retribution. It overrides our sense of justice and turns us into creatures of vengenance, wanting blood for blood. The death penalty gives us that opportunity.

I know myself and I know that if I were sitting on a jury for an ugly murder and was given an eye for an eye option, the temptation to take it would make it very difficult for me to hand out a fair verdict. Looking at the victim's family, knowing the details--it's a nightmare. Even without the death penalty, it's difficult to get a just conviction. With the death penalty, if some new evidence comes to light exonerating the convicted party, well, he's dead.

Let's make it clear--most opponents of the death penalty aren't overly worried about the fate of the guilty. We worry about the innocent. We worry that participating in an inherently unjust system will turn the innocent into the guilty. That's why we oppose torture. We have no love for those who plan to commit terrorist attacks against us. But we know that torturing and murdering turns the innocent, in this case the young people who are our soliders, into the guilty, people who let blood for what ultimate purpose is lost to the fog.

And that's why not to execute--the finality of death means that those who execute are innocents turned to guilty, having acted with finality upon someone for reasons that turn to ungraspable smoke once the dead have passed.

46 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent post. I was once served on the jury on a very minor criminal trial and was amazed at how difficult it was for the 12 of us to come to any sort of consensus about what seemed at first to be a very straightforward matter. It was an incredibly emotional experience which haunted me for months afterwards. Criminal cases often seem very cut-and-dried when you read about them in the newspaper, but they're way more complex and ambiguous when you experience them from the courtroom. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to sit on a jury for a death penalty case, and I think it's unfair to place that burdan on anyone. -- Octavia

3/01/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was having this discussion earlier today with several people who were really against this decision initially. Justice Kennedy goes to pains to point out that not only are we against world opinion on the issue, we are the only country in the world now that executes juveniles. Not China, not Saudi Arabia, but the United States. The opinion points out that the United Kingdom has banned executions for those under the age of 21 since 1930.

That fact stopped most people in their tracks. There's "world opinion" and then there's the only country left in the world.

People recognize implicitly that children think differently. That's why we have statutory rape laws and why we charge god awful insurance rates for those under 25.

When you start pointing out that worse than dictatorships then the only thing left to do is quibble about the process of change, either by legislature or the courts. And I don't think Justice Scalia is as persuasive.

Scalia has written some good pro-defendant opinions, but I think he's wrong on his cruel and unusual punishment analysis. But this debate about how to determine what is cruel and unusual has started back since Atkins v. Virginia which outlawed the execution of the mentally retarded.

3/02/2005

 
Blogger Charlie said...

You make a good point that there are many reasons for being opposed to the death penalty and torture. That being said, I think one could make a case that conservatives like Hugo don't get the severity of murder. After all, they are the ones proposing that we end another's life as a punishment.

Perhaps calling it "severity of murder" is not the best way to talk about it. Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes murder. "Severity of killing" might be better. Regardless of whether you think it is murder or not, involuntarily taking someone's life feels wrong to me. And two wrongs don't make a right.

3/02/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"that outright stated that Americans are backing away from supporting the death penalty because we are afraid of what a bunch of foreigners think of us"

Speaking as someone who's a foreigner to Americans (but you're all technically foreigners to me, so, hmm, it's all kind of relative isn't it?), I must say I find that kind of view really really sad. I mean, that people would use the accusation of being afraid of the opinion of a "bunch of foreigners" (niiice view of international conventions, as ever); or cave in to that accusation as if it had any weight. Nevermind the unpleasant and bigoted implications of that mentality. Let's look at the pragmatic aspect. AS IF the popular opinion of any country or bunch of countries in the world or the entire world itself ever influenced American popular opinion and most importantly its government policies in the slightest way?! When? Where? It's a joke really. A very very lame joke. Enough said.

(The link is not my web page, but something that should be a good read on the topic of torture. See the full transcript, too).

3/02/2005

 
Blogger Amanda Marcotte said...

Owen, I generally aspire to democratic-with-a-small-d ideals and try to view issues through that lens. That's vague, I know. The devil is in the details.

3/02/2005

 
Blogger Earnest said...

Reasonable people shouldn't disagree with what constitutes murder. It's unlawful killing, which is why the Death Penalty isn't murder.

3/02/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahh, but Earnest reasonable people disagree all the time about what constitutes murder. Abortion? Various kinds of self-defense? These issues are not cut-and-dried. Even if you drop the abortion debate out of the picture, the issue of whether the killing of an abusive husband constitutes murder or self-defense and under what circumstances is ongoing and has been for years.

Myself I'm against the death penalty because it is 99% of the time about vengeance rather than justice or public safety, and I don't think we as a society need to be condoning that aspect of human nature.

3/02/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do agree with Mina - the "rest of the world" is a rather large place, and America certainly doesn't exist in a vaccuum. Besides, as a political power, America has has quite an influence on us "bunch of foreigners", friendly or no.

3/02/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quite a good post, Amanda, and the fact that innocence can never be fully asserted in an unjust system, making an irreversible death contrary to justice, can never be higlighted enough.

However, I for one truly care about the guilty. It's about dignity no matter what, but more than that : it's about free-will. It's about unpredictability. It's about the fact that all human beings can change. And that nothing, to me, is as important as that never-ending second chance.

It's about the belief that every single human being, however stupid or cruel at one point of their life, can know utter beauty, and joy, and find that in others. It's about knowing that no one is beyond redemption, that no one can ever be bereft of the possibility to fight for others and to give himself to others.

Death is the only thing that takes choice away from us. Not every criminal will "reform". Some will, some won't. Still, it doesn't matter if it's a 1 to 1000 ratio, because this is about faith. Not a religious one, of course. But faith in mankind. That's what makes us liberals, isn't it ?

Not that we can't be cynics, not that we don't denounce flaws. But we believe it can always get better, because we have it in ourselves. The seed. Will it bloom ? In myself ? In these others ? In those others ? I cannot say. Can you ?

3/02/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

Part of my opposition to the death penalty is that it's used to justify the severity of the criminal justice system overall. Why complain about 25-to-life? At least you didn't get the death penalty.

The US imprisons a higher proportion of its population than any other nation except, I think, the People's Republic of China.

3/03/2005

 
Blogger Tuli said...

The reason we turn to the international community for this Roper analysis of the Eight Amendments prohibition on “Cruel and Unusual Punishment,” is the unusual aspect of the punishment. Executing people who commit crimes as minors is unusual, and therein lies the justification for the prohibition. We are one of only three countries that engaged in this type of punishment, and a growing majority of states in the US are outlawing it. So, under a Roper analysis, executing people who were minors when they committed crimes, is clearly “unusual.” This reasoning also fits in nicely with your torture analysis.

Just MHO.

3/05/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey i noticed your site is about belfast hotel kingdom united i found somewhere if your in the UK that allows you to send spoofed sms!

send a TXT "EN SPOOFING 07712345678 Hi i really fancy you" to 69911, Hi i
really fancy you is sent to 07712345678 and the user gets a standard reply.

Changing 07712345678 with the number you want to send too!

The SMS Costs £1.50 per msg but its really good!

I hope you enjoy this :) i did so pass on the word!

Remember its UK Only

10/14/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So you need a unsecured loan uk

Get a unsecured loan uk at Easy Loans UK

11/24/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fruta vida is an amazing drink that is now widely available in the USA and Canada showing remarkable abilities to assist the cure of natural ailments such as diabetes and many other every day illness's. Just read the testimonial from takers of this drink and the specialist's opinions will speak for themselves - try it! www.fruitavida.biz

12/17/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fruta vida is an amazing drink that is now widely available in the USA and Canada showing remarkable abilities to assist the cure of natural ailments such as diabetes and many other every day illness's. Just read the testimonial from takers of this drink and the specialist's opinions will speak for themselves - try it! www.fruitavida.biz

12/20/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fruta vida is an amazing drink that is now widely available in the USA and Canada showing remarkable abilities to assist the cure of natural ailments such as diabetes and many other every day illness's. Just read the testimonial from takers of this drink and the specialist's opinions will speak for themselves - try it! www.fruitavida.biz

1/05/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shop at your favorite stores 24 hours a day. Why go to the mall when you can shop online and avoid the traffic

1/08/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A real enlightening blog. Don't stop now. You may be interested in living better best refinance mortgage rate http://thehomemortgageguide.com STOP renting now, Find out how! best refinance mortgage rate

1/09/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I seldomly rant, but I must say that I have completely no idea how I ended up on yoru site with the search term discount car part. Strange land this cyberspace. Happy blogging.

1/11/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's time to take charge of your future and independence by having your own business!

1/16/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shop online today. Forget driving to the mall when you can just click the mouse and order from your favorite store. No traffic to deal with

1/17/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello, you have a well designed blog here. I hope you receive some good comments.

1/18/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blog is informative. Don't stop. Don't miss visiting this site about California mortgage refinancing http://thehomemortgageguide.com New Information revealed! California mortgage refinancing

1/18/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello ##NAME##, with all the information on telework I became very overwhelmed. Anyway, I was online doing a specific search for the most current information on telework and somehow I ended up on your site. ##NAME## to be frank, ##TITLE## wasn't not the exact match to what I was looking for, but boy am I glad I'm here. You've certainly managed to grab me attention and peak my interest. I must say this is a great blog and I'm most certainly happy that I stopped by eventhough it wasn't the telework related information I was looking for. Thanks. Keep up the good work.

1/22/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the best way to go with this?Candidly, Walter paying off college loans

1/25/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lose Weight Now. Fasting, when done peoperly, can be a basoc part of a solid weight loss plan. If done correctly it can ne a great start to your new way of life.
Link to this site. weight loss calorie chart

1/27/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your blog seems to be a perfect guide in helping opthers to develop a blof of there own. i have taken some tips from it and i hope to implement on my blog. thanxs for the help . regards . no fax payday loans

1/29/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello ##NAME##, with all the information on telework I became very overwhelmed. Anyway, I was online doing a specific search for the most current information on telework and somehow I ended up on your site. ##NAME## to be frank, ##TITLE## wasn't not the exact match to what I was looking for, but boy am I glad I'm here. You've certainly managed to grab me attention and peak my interest. I must say this is a great blog and I'm most certainly happy that I stopped by eventhough it wasn't the telework related information I was looking for. Thanks. Keep up the good work.

1/31/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello ##NAME##, with all the information on legitimate work from home jobs I became very overwhelmed. Anyway, I was online doing a specific search for the most current information on legitimate work from home jobs and somehow I ended up on your site. ##NAME## to be frank, ##TITLE## wasn't not the exact match to what I was looking for, but boy am I glad I'm here. You've certainly managed to grab me attention and peak my interest. I must say this is a great blog and I'm most certainly happy that I stopped by eventhough it wasn't the legitimate work from home jobs related information I was looking for. Thanks. Keep up the good work.

1/31/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How amazing can it be that one word can truly get you excited when Emeril Lagassi says that word
BAM! Is it not amazing how he says it can really get you interested and excited in what he's
making on his cooking show or what? I tell you. And the other thing is he really makes cooking
whatever he does look easy and like I could do the same. I truly like him.
This automation thing on the web is wonderful. Who would have thunk that I would be telling
robots to send people mail when I want them to. This is beyond my belief structure that I though
I would encounter when I came across the world wide web just a few years ago. Mortgage companies in the uk

2/06/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All I can say is wow what a great job! The other half and I just got back from our friends house (well actually her friends house) and I needed a big break. I am working on a business project right now that is based on average cost home insurance owner. I have literally been on-line for 4-5 hours doing research. Even though your blog really isn�t on the same page as average cost home insurance owner I am certainly glad I came across your blog. There are a ton of great view points on this blog. Well I think I can here the kids screaming in the background. I put you in my internet favorites and I will certainly come back and visit. If you want to take a peek at my site you can find me here at http://www.homeowner-insurance-quote.com. I update my site very frequently. Again, great job blogging and I will be back again soon!

2/09/2006

 
Blogger Rob said...

Hey, you have a cool blog here. Just thought I'd stop by to tell you. I'm out blogging. Keep up the good work!

regards,
small business health insurance idaho

2/11/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am here because of search results for blogs with a related topic to mine.
Please,accept my congratulations for your excellent work!
I have a auto insurance online oregon quote site.
Come and check it out if you get time :-)
Best regards!

6/29/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my auto insurance prices site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

6/30/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my auto insurance specialist site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

7/08/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my auto insurance rates site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

7/08/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is an excellent blog. Keep it going.You are providing
a great resource on the Internet here!
If you have a moment, please take a look at my auto insurance state farm site.
Have a great week!

7/09/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I AM ENJOYING ALL YOUR COMMENTS! *For those who want to post their answers for ##link#, please visit my blog at payday loans online

7/10/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my automobile insurance in new york site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

7/15/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my automobile insurance for maryland site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

7/16/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Fellow! I was just searching blogs,and I found yours! I like it!
If you have a moment, please visit my business insurance renters site.
Good luck!

8/02/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am here because of search results for blogs with a related topic to mine.
Please,accept my congratulations for your excellent work!
I have a used ford dealers car site.
Come and check it out if you get time :-)
Best regards!

8/09/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Fellow, you have a top-notch blog here!
If you have a moment, please have a look at my california free car insurance quote site.
Good luck!

8/09/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there Blogger, a real useful blog.Keep with the good work.
If you have a moment, please visit my california health insurance quotes site.
I send you warm regards and wishes of continued success.

8/09/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amanda,

I saw your post
regarding extra free make money .

You are welcome to place a link to
your blog or website on my high
traffic website for free. See:

http://www.thefreeadforum.com


The Free Ad Forum is a forum where you may
post your permanent search engine friendly ads daily for
free. I hope you take advantage of this free advertising
opportunity, We have a special section just for extra free make money .

Thank you,

John,

http://www.thefreeadforum.com
The Free Advertising Forum.

12/07/2006

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

.





Hi matey

I'm sure it was this blog I was reading a while back where someone was looking for an SEO tool for driving more traffic and get more hits for their website.

Anyway, I was speaking to a techi guy at work who gets to know all the latest stuff and he uses the free Link Referral Program at http://marketingexperts.wordpress.com.

His website on mlm consultant amongst other stuff has seen traffic explode since he started using the Link Referral Program - consequently his affiliate sales commissions and business sales went through the roof PLUS his website increased in google ranking which was an added bonus!!

If anyone else has any good ideas for driving more traffic to blogs/websites then please share with your online business blog buddies. Ta ;-)


home based business
home based business opportunity
internet home based business
home based web business
best home based business
home based business idea
home internet based business opportunity
start home based business
best home based business opportunity
online home based business
income opportunity home based business
legitimate home based business
home based business lead
mlm home based business
starting a home based business
top home based business
christian home based business
home based small business
home based internet marketing business
free home based business
work at home based business opportunity
computer home based business
home based mlm business opportunity
make money home based business
home based business work
home based travel business
easy home based business
serious home based business opportunity
small home based business opportunity
online home based business opportunity
home based business for woman
business opportunity home based work from
work from home based business
new home based business opportunity
start a home based business on the internet
based business business home opportunity
legitimate home based business opportunity
home based sales business
home based jewelry business
best rated home based business
home based franchise opportunity business
successful home based business
home based business opportunity idea
profitable home based business
internet home based business idea
home based business work at home
best home based business idea
home based business opportunity work at home
free home based internet business
home based business tax deduction
top home based business opportunity
home based computer business opportunity
unique home based business opportunity
home based affiliate business
home based business opportunity uk
income opportunity home based business idea
based business home incredible opportunity
based best business home small
starting home based internet business
christian home based business opportunity
home based business merchant account
best home based internet business
based business home network opportunity
home based business marketing
based business home idea latest
home based business review
home based business directory
based business career home opportunity
work at home based internet business
based business home job opportunity
home based business trade secret
best home based business
home based business magazine
home based computer business idea
home based business startup idea
home based business for sale
home based business cash opportunity
home based business web site
most successful home based business









.

4/16/2007

 

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home