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Wednesday, November 10, 2004

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Through Ross we have a great link by Digby beating up on Kevin Drum for being overly optimistic about pulling "values" voters away. Digby's point, and it's a good one, is that "values" have nothing to do with the moralistic crap the Christian right pours out day after day while their followers cheat more, use more drugs, divorce more, and are hateful. It's just a tribal identity thing. I would like to agree whole-heartedly and also add my bit on why abortion is now a no-compromise issue. Here's the quote from Kevin about abortion and feminism.

There's a germ of an idea here, but it needs to be teased out. The abortion point is a good one, for example. Liberals are in favor of choice, not in favor of abortion per se, so why shouldn't we talk more often about policies that reduce the need for abortions while continuing to defend the right of choice itself? This won't impress the hardcore evangelicals, of course, but it might appeal to some of their more moderate neighbors. Ditto for porn.

Gay rights and feminisim are another thing entirely. Liberals are just fundamentally in favor of this stuff, and we shouldn't even think about trying to talk our way around it. If we lose votes for it, we lose votes for it.

We have to understand and understand now that the abortion debate (and probably the porn thing, too) is about feminism, or at least the right's perception of it. As I point out below, the fight to criminalize abortion is mostly a symbolic battle to assert male supremacy. If you understand that terminating a pregnancy is perceived as a a woman willfully stopping what a man alone has started, then the rhetoric they employ makes a lot more sense. I don't really see how that can be compromised. I mean, saying that you're against abortion but for it being legal is saying, in a sense, I'm against women bucking male authority but I don't want it to against the law. To authoritative types, all authority should work together. The government's duty is to help a man rule over his family, not to help his family defy his authority.

I've been pro-Lakoff for a long time, and I think everyone needs to read his books to understand what's going on. It's not going to ever be possible to make space for women's rights in a worldview that understands women as being unruly and subject to male authority. We simply have to assert an alternative worldview with the courage of our convictions and quit apologizing for it.

I would also like to point everyone in the direction of this article about the fight over the birth control pill. If there's any doubt that my theory that the abortion debates are more about returning us to a male-active/female-passive worldview, then this passage should quell them:

At the heart of the debate between anti-Pill forces and mainstream medicine lies a profound difference of opinion about when pregnancy and life begin. The long-standing medical definition of pregnancy, held by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, is that it starts not when an egg is fertilized, but when the fertilized egg implants in the uterine lining.

This distinction is practical: A pregnancy test won't show a positive result before implantation. "It can't be an abortion before there is a pregnancy," points out David Grimes, MD, a clinical professor in obstetrics and gynecology at the University of North Carolina School of Medicine and one of the leading contraception experts in the US.

But anti-Pill doctors and pharmacists say life begins sooner, at fertilization. Sloughing off a fertilized egg, in their view, is a "chemical abortion."

The pro-lifers want to change the only workable medical definition of what "pregnancy" is to reflect their male-centered viewpoint. As is typical with Christian right-wingers, science needs to give way to magical thinking. That pregnancy can only happen if the female body does the work of implantation is just beyond their way of thinking. Pregnancy has to be male-instigated--he's planting the seed, not her! It doesn't take two to tango in this worldview. Men lead women. Period. That's what this is about and that's why compromise isn't going to work.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

One thing that never gets mentioned is that there are plenty of other reasons, some involving behavior, why conceptuses fail to implant. One of the commonest ones is uterine infections, which prevent the uterine lining from responding effectively to hormones and becoming effectively nutritive/welcoming. In the USA, Uterine infections are generally sexually transmitted and likelihood goes up with nonmonogamous behavior on either partner's side, ie, result from voluntary behavior. (In developing countries, there may also be a significant rate of genital tuberculosis, though that may also result in blockage of fallopian tube or epididymus/vas deferens, hence, lower rate of conception as well as implantation). It is unclear what role cigarette smoking has on rates of implantation, but since cigarette smoking (nicotine) has effects on small-diameter blood vessels, there is good theoretical basis to assume that smoking may be bad for implantation as well as its known deleterious effects on established pregnancies.

NancyP

11/10/2004

 
Blogger PlainandShort said...

Ironically, abortion rates went up during W's term, proably becasue he decreased welfare, so poor women think twice before becoming mothers. Also, he decreased health insurance-pregnancy is more risky than an abortion. I think your blog is awesome, by the way.If you're ever inclined to check out my feeble efforts, go to http://plainandshort.blogspot.com

11/10/2004

 
Blogger Roxanne said...

I am very, very glad you brought this up.

I've seen a bunch of chicken-shits, including Kevin, who are toying/implying/insinuating that reproductive rights can be a bargaining chip in capturing more "swing-ish" voters ... to which I call bullshit.

If they want to give up some rights, perhaps they should start with the right that have something, anything, to do with "men's rights." Otherwise, they need to shut the fuck up.

Yes, I know I've teased at my uncomfort with "late" and partial-birth abortions, but I think my chrome make-up gives me a greater voice in the dialogue.

11/10/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't agree that the abortion position of the majority of those on the right is an attempt to assert male supremacy. I think it's an attempt to impose cultural supremacy. They believe that human life begins at conception, not because it is then a potential person, but because it then has "a soul". And you'd darn well better at least behave as though you believe it too! That's why they don't really care about which trimester an abortion occurs in or even if the egg has implanted. Viability isn't an issue since, in their view, it was a human being the instant the sperm penetrated the egg and God quickened it. In order for their religious concept to work, they need a decisive cutoff point for the beginning of "life" and the only one that remotely works is fertilization. So they're coming to a perfectly logical conclusion if their initial premise weren't pure superstition.
Bottom line, if their concern were really male dominance, they'd be OK with abortion so long as it was the man's choice. They don't want to take away your right to choose because they don't think women are capable of making such decisions but because they don't believe there ever can be a right decision, no matter who makes it.
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11/11/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now the abstinence-only crowd you were blogging about before is all about paternalism and male dominance. The fact that they're often the same people as the anti-choice Gestapo confuses the issue.
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11/11/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Mojo, everything you said underlines everything I said. Why do those on the right think "ensoulment" happens at conception? Because the popular perception of an egg sitting patiently waiting to be penetrated by a hyperactive sperm fits the right's perception of ordained gender roles perfectly. It makes no sense that god would ensoul an egg at that time, because up to 50% of fertilized eggs don't attach and are sloughed off naturally. There's no Biblical or logical reason not to randomly assign implantation as the time that the soul is put inside a fertilized egg. Religion has three or four primary uses, and one of the big ones is to justify male supremacy--it used to be that people thought sperm was just little bitty babies and ensoulment happened after implantation. But now that weunderstand that it's a sperm and an egg, religion adjusted its views so that pregnancy was once again a male-centered event.

Abortion has been legal long enough that people tend to forget that male-initiated abortions are considered much more acceptable than female-initiated ones. For instance, that George Bush paid for a girlfriend's abortion before it was legal hasn't really been turned into the huge story that it would be in a female candidate ever had an abortion.

11/11/2004

 
Blogger Barbara Preuninger said...

I strongly agree with you about people's regard for male-initiated abortions vs. female-initiated. I also totally agree with what you said about the "othering" of women (an earlier post) and about wanting women to be passive pregnancy objects. But I wanted to share a recent experience I had that I think complicates the issue somewhat. It's on my blog here.

And I want to make very clear that I'm not trying to piss you or anyone else off with my opinion. I am really only trying to share a divergent view. I really hate arguing about this, because I agree with you so much, Amanda, on so many things and I want you to like me (one of your hundreds of loyal readers and sister MSN advice-haters). Yet I still feel compelled to speak up, and keep my feet rooted at my lonely data point.

11/11/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Certainly, it's complicated. When I talk about symbolic meanings and whatnot, I definitely don't think that means that everyone falls lockstep into the same way of thinking. These are the general trends, etc.

Forcing a woman to get an abortion is no more pro-choice than forcing her to continue with a pregnancy, by the way. My body my choice goes both ways.

And no worries! The pro-lifers I flip out on are the smug, married men who could easily accomodate another baby and think that the rest of us should just slap a chastity belt on because we cannot.

11/11/2004

 
Blogger wolfa said...

About the pro-life married men . . . have you noticed a tendency for women to become more pro-choice after having given birth and men becoming more pro-life after having children?

11/11/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Yeah, I have. And it just makes me wonder why men think that they have a better idea than women what it's like to be able to get pregnant and give birth.

11/11/2004

 
Blogger wolfa said...

It continues to make no sense to me. I try to figure out reasoning, but . . . they didn't see how the pregnancy was hard on their wives? They thought she was lying? Labour looked like fun? They love their kids so much they want to force everyone to have kids? It boggles the mind.

11/11/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I think it's their way of getting a handle on an experience that happened to them, but outside of them. Sort of an offshoot of what I'm talking about here--it's a way to take some more ownership of the situation,I think.

And, at least in my dad's case (my dad and mom are perfect examples of the phenomenon that you mention--as are my grandparents, now that I think about it), he loves kids and always wanted a lot more of them. But, as I always tease him about, he just couldn't get a woman to go along with his plans to have 6 or 7.

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12/29/2005

 
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12/29/2005

 
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12/30/2005

 
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