Mouse rant blog vent mouse.

Monday, December 27, 2004

More than a mouthful?

Back to the feminist stuff, as my grandmother would say. I was reading the always thought-provoking Susan Bordo again the other day when I came across her describing the joke about women's breasts, "More than a mouthful is a waste," as sexist and I have to admit, I was surprised. Crude? Yes. Sexist? Well, I never thought of it that way before.

I remember the first time I heard this joke in high school when I was still in the process of lamenting what was quickly becoming obvious--I was taking after my mother and I could hope to fill a B-cup at best when I was older. Coming out of the excessive 80s, it was still assumed when I was in high school in the early 90s that having big breasts was an absolutely necessity for being attractive to men, and I was naturally concerned. Expressing this concern over lunch, one of my girl friends quipped to me that more that more than a mouthful was a waste. We immediately died laughing, and I felt empowered by my friend's confidence in herself and in me.

Explaining jokes takes from the humor, but in this case I think it's important for understanding why the joke doesn't offend me. The joke works by pointing out that the size of breasts are irrelevant for the mechanics of sex, or of breast-feeding for that matter. A boob is a boob is a boob, and the size of said boob doesn't change its function either to the person who owns it or the person that is touching it for whatever reason. I also tend to think it evokes sex-as-intimacy instead of sex-as-conquest, because it's something that's done tenderly and for a woman's pleasure as much as a man's. It's telling to me that while in porn there is no end in sight of surgically enhanced breasts, you rarely see men even put a hand on a breast, much less a mouth. It's no coincidence, either, that breast implants detract from a breast's sensitivity.

The question that bothers me, then, is: Are all sexualized descriptions of women's (or men's) bodies sexist by definition? Is crudeness the same as sexism? Is objectification always sexist? If women feel empowered by objectification the subverts the normalized beauty standards, is that false empowerment?

I'm reminded of the song "Baby Got Back", which charted in no small part because women were enthusiastic about it at well. The song has resonance because it's a big, fat raspberry to the beauty standard of the flat-assed white girl that is not only sexist and racist, but also has little to do with even appealing to men's sexual desires. The white flat-assed beauty standard exists only to terrorize women. Of course, the good humor of the song makes it much more accessible, as is the way that Sir Mix-A-Lot allies himself with put-upon women by making it clear that he feels put upon by pressure to pretend that he is attracted to the "right" women, when he is just not.

I'm not saying that either of these examples are feminist rebellion or anything. In the end, women are still being objectified in a way that men are exempted from. So in that sense, jokes and songs like these are sexist, but more because of the unspoken assumption that men are not to be objectified in this way. (Can you imagine a joke about more than a pussy-ful is a waste? Well, I can but you know what I mean.) But I wouldn't go so far as to put these things in the same category as truly offensive sexist clap-trap like fashion magazines or breast implants, since the point of the joke and of the song is to straightforwardly express that women's bodies are fine the way they are and to rebel against oppressive beauty standards that mean to suck the joy out of sexual interaction and fill it with money-making insecurities.

Thoughts?

142 Comments:

Blogger bitchphd said...

Well, it is kind of objectifying--I think especially that "waste" part. But like you I have much bigger fish to fry.

I think we oughta just start saying the same thing about dicks: "more than a mouthful is a waste." ;)

12/27/2004

 
Blogger S. Lynne Fremont said...

Interesting how the same joke can have such different meanings to different people.

I think that joke is terribly sexist. When I was in middle school, it became obvious very early to *everyone* that I was going to be well endowed and large chested. The boys would often tease me about it and really harassed me. They used to undo my bra in the hallways or they would pull it back and snap it. They used to make comments about my breasts. Some boys liked them and some boys didn't. There were a couple who didn't and would occasionally say that joke to me.

It was clear that they thought that because they were boys, it was perfectly ok for them a judge a girls worth based on her breasts. It also was clear that they thought that a girl's worth was dependent on their opinions and also that breasts were put girls for their own amusement. In their minds, anything more than a mouthful was a waste which included the rest of the girl...not just the rest of her breast

Anyhow, that is why I cringe whenever someone says that about a woman's breasts.

12/27/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

As an aside, I really hate the use of "objectifying" to mean "thinking about or looking at a person lustfully." Finding a woman sexy doesn't mean I think that being sexy is her primary function in life, or that sexiness is the proper measure of a woman's worth.

I'd always heard it as "more than a handful," but mouthful is much funnier due to the breastfeeding reference.

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Roxanne said...

I don't think the dick joke works. Not for me, anyway.

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Barbara Mountrey said...

In my grandmother's day, it was said that the ideal breast would fit in a champagne glass (those were the flatter glasses, not today's tulip-shaped glasses) or in a teacup. I once told a well-endowed friend that my husband said anything that did not fit in one's mouth was wasted, but she replied haughtily that HER husband said anything that did not fit in two hands was wasted! I'd like to think that men love a woman first, then learn to appreciate her physical qualities. Is that terribly naive?

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Regularly, when I see some sort of "fluff" story on the nightly news, I think it must have been a slow news day. You all know the type of story, say there's been no major political or social newsworthy events, so you hear coverage about how Joe Senator visited the local Rotary Club. There's no reason why that warrants coverage, other than it being a slow news day.

Sounds to me like Susan Bordo was having a slow news day.

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Myth, I agree that the word is misused, though looking at someone as a sexual object is "objectifying", that doesn't mean that's how the person looking always feels or anything like that. However, for the purposes of this, I had no other way to phrase it--there's not much you can call examining women body part by body part except objectificaton.

Brad, it was a throwaway sentence in a larger essay. It's me who is noodling and going off on tangents.

12/27/2004

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

I think Lynne's comment gets at the problem with the joke: it's double-edged.

My experience has been that women with all sorts of different body shapes feel that everyone believes some other body shape is better than their own -- but women with that other body shape have heard the reverse.

On objectifying: I think it makes more sense if used to mean "treating a woman as a sexual object *and denying her as a sexual subject*."

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Jean Dudley said...

First, I think your grandmother is a very cool lady, even if she is conservative. Give her my regards, she reminds me of my own grandmother.

On to jokes; That joke empowered me as well when I as -B cup. And it still does, now that I'm ±D cup. I'm of an age where I can laugh at my own frustration at having to carry around these behemoths.

As a woman who loves women, I had to get over being intimidated by the scope of my own and my lovers' sexuality. But I don't think I've ever really been intimidated or disappointed by the size or lack of my lovers' breasts.

I enjoy reading your blog, Mouse, and I'd like to invite you to read mine.

Jean Dudley
http://jeansvoice.blogspot.com

12/27/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I think Lynne's comment gets at the problem with the joke: it's double-edged.Yeah, as someone who was the first in the class to get breasts and had to deal with intense interest from both boys and girls, I really resent any intimations that breast size has anything to do with character or that any of it is "waste." I didn't choose to have these triple D's, I'm not in a position to undergo painful and potentially dangerous surgery to reduce them, so I'd rather not be dismissed as wasteful.

Besides, whose mouthful or handful are we talking about here?

12/27/2004

 
Blogger Natalie Bennett said...

Like so many jokes, it depends on the person who says it, the group to whom it is said, and the intent of the speaker.

Said wryly among a group of female friends, it is worth a good laugh, but said to someone who might be sensitive about their breast size, carelessly or with the intent to wound, exactly the same words could hurt and embarrass.

12/28/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess I don't understand how such a joke would make you feel empowered unless that word has lost all meaning (which I think it has but that's another subject). I understand how it might make you feel less bad about yourself and I understand how it can make you feel like you've moved up a fraction in the ranking of a woman's value as calculated by the size of her breasts, but empowered? And the way I heard this "joke" included a follow up tag: more than a mouthful is a waste but it's nice to know it's there.

holly

12/28/2004

 
Blogger resigned idealist said...

I've been mostly a double AA since puberty and only recently have gained enough weight to be *gasp* an A cup. Me, I laugh at people (men & women) who have expressed their opinion of my breasts. I know that 1) I haven't had to wear a bra in over 25 years and to me, that's women's lib. 2) I can run down my hallway at top speed without having to hold on to my breasts. 3) I think my nipples, being half the size of my breasts are extra ultra sensitive and so far, having been with small and large breasted women, I find that smaller breasts have more sensitivity so yay for me! 4) I can sleep on my stomach!!!! God, that is so relaxing. 5) Less laundry to worry about, less items to pack when travelling, no need to worry about straps showing, tan lines and what not.

I laugh so heartily that people ask why I'm laughing. And I tell them, I'm laughing at your stupid misconceptions, cause my teeny breasts brings freedom, sensitivity during sex and more freedom.

12/28/2004

 
Blogger Earnest said...

"Empowered" has most certainly lost its value, and the joke is without a doubt sexist, no matter who says it. The problem as I see it is that feminism and feminist thought has very vague criteria not only for what should be thought sexist (either against women or men) but also for what its aims are or should be. That's what makes it so increasingly irrelevant to people's lives. It's not that we all couldn't benefit from a progressive, pro-women agenda, there simply isn't one that is fit for consumption. I understand that this is the kind of comment that opens the clouds for rains of scorn, but if it were false, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about the joke.

12/28/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I'm also unclear on why the joke would be empowering for any woman when it uses a man's frame of reference to separate women into categories and pit them against each other.

12/28/2004

 
Blogger jeff said...

First of all, I think that it's good to take on the 'smaller issues' (no pun intended. really!) of feminism--the everyday sorts of comments that add up and are, to some (obviously from the comments) not unimportant in the least. Plus, I think you do a fantastic job of framing the discussion, Amanda.

Earnest--You don't explain why the "joke is without a doubt sexist", except to say that feminism itself is complex. One of the best things a teacher of mine ever told me was to watch for the catch phrases "no doubt" and "obviously", because often when somebody uses them, she is skirting an issue, or dodging a possible counterexample. I think you're not answering anything Amanda or the other people have noted--just venting your frustration that feminism isn't like, say, the Principia Mathematica. Having fluid or changing boundaries, or even discovering what those boundaries are regarding a concept (like 'sexism') doesn't mean that the criteria are vague. It means they aren't fully decided. Not much about the world is.

Which isn't to say that clarifying concepts regarding feminism doesn't need to be done. In fact, in asking the questions Amanda asks, and in our answering, that's exactly what we're doing.

12/28/2004

 
Blogger Anne said...

"I'm also unclear on why the joke would be empowering for any woman when it uses a man's frame of reference to separate women into categories and pit them against each other."

That's what I was thinking.

On the other hand, as a 32B I don't entirely object to the comment ;)

12/28/2004

 
Blogger Earnest said...

The joke promotes the stereotyping of social role based on gender by insinuating that the feminine role is to pacify her sexual partner. The joke accomplishes this by implying that any amount of breast that exceeds the quantity required to stuff her partner's mouth is a waste, not even useful for cosmetic reasons. One might infer that the joke refers to breastfeeding, but I've heard very few babies crack that joke. Even if a woman were making the joke to another woman in the context of breastfeeding, the joke still would be sexist.

12/29/2004

 
Blogger jeff said...

Earnest--

Thanks for responding.

I disagree with you. I think that at the very least there are some large contexts where such a joke isn't sexist. I'll try to show how by responding to some things you said.

You said: "The joke accomplishes this by implying that any amount of breast that exceeds the quantity required to stuff her partner's mouth is a waste, not even useful for cosmetic reasons." Leaving aside what "useful for cosmetic reasons" means, because I really don't understand that phrase as regards breasts, I'd like to point out that if a woman is making this joke about herself, she may be pointing out that having 'more than a mouthful' herself isn't so useful to HER. She *might* well mean that it isn't useful to a lover, but she might not. Having made a cursory survey of my female friends, usefulness of one's own breasts is a possible/probable context in which to make this joke.

This oversight about context is also shown when you note that you haven't heard babies crack this joke--no, but women can make it, and women who are mothers apparently do make it. In what way could the joke be sexist ("without a doubt") for a mother to say? Or, in my above example, for a woman to say to her lover, or a friend?

I'm trying to provide the 'doubt' to counter the 'without a doubt'. Let me know what you think.

12/30/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Agreed in this sense--when we say, "more than a mouthful is a waste" we are assuming due to our own sexism that the person who is judging "waste" is the man with the mouthful. But a woman who makes this joke may be referring to the notion that larger doesn't equal more pleasure. Sometimes in all the discussion about breasts and sex, we forget that while sucking on one is pleasurable for a man, it is all the more so for the woman.

12/30/2004

 
Blogger jeff said...

That's what I was trying to get to, Amanda. As usual, you put it more succinctly...

12/31/2004

 
Blogger Earnest said...

The problem with your arguments as I see them is that they do nothing to alleviate the problem that the joke is still reinforcing social roles through stereotyping. If she is saying it in regards to breastfeeding, it is reinforcing her role as "mother," and if she is saying it to her lover, we are still talking about the breasts usefulness being sexual. I see no context where the joke doesn't reinforce social roles. That having been said, the question should be whether the sexism is bad or not. Is all sexism bad?

12/31/2004

 
Blogger jeff said...

Earnest--

I'm not completely sure I understand your last point, but if I do understand it correctly, I'd have to sya I disagree with you.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I don't want to be confused with a Paglia or something, but I don't think that all social roles are sexist roles. That is, the 'stereotype' of 'lover' isn't a negative stereotype (in many social circles, at least!) and the role as lover isn't an inherently sexist role (I recognize that this last point may be controversial if one takes certain arguments regarding 'sex as oppression' seriously).

Put a slightly different way: I don't think that (and correct me here, people, if I get it very wrong) being called a 'mother' is sexist, at least in this context. It's descriptive--although again, I admit that there might be some contexts where being called 'mother' would be sexist...for instance if being a mother was offered up as diametrically opposed to being a worker or something.

I'm curious what others think regarding the "All reinforcement of social roles is bad" position.

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7/20/2016

 

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