Mouse rant blog vent mouse.

Monday, October 18, 2004

Cattiness

Not that I'm above making catty comments about people, but screw it. I'll hit on the subject anyway. I love talking crap about people but there are a few topics I won't touch and Astarte hits on my two big ones here. It's silly to bust on some woman for wearing something she's comfortable in or grouse because other women aren't living up to some feminine standard, because then you're just helping the oppressors and all that. And the other side of that is it's really not cool to pick on women who like to wear a little lipstick and pull themselves together and look nice. It's not cool because, well, the Mouse wears lipstick and she still votes pro-choice so there.

No, I've talked about this before, so I won't get back into the fashion debates. Suffice it to say, if it's cool for men to look feminine and women to look masculine nowadays, it's fine for me to look girly if I want to. It makes me feel comfortable, and I have just as much a right to feel comfortable as anyone else. But it does raise an interesting issue, since Astarte talks about women who try to force clothes on you that you don't like because that's what's "feminine". Is it somehow more acceptable to try to shame women who wear clothes that you deem to be too frou-frou?

(I feel weird even getting into this, because I'm not even close to over-the-top. I'm still pretty laid-back and couldn't be talked into really dressing up to go out downtown, if for no other reason than the places I go to are pretty downscale. I wear jeans, but maybe with like a red top and casual heels and some lipstick, which is still girling it up beyond what some of my friends do, which is why this occurs to me.)

My girl friends nowadays are all pretty feminist, mature, and cherish their female frienships. I can't imagine picking on a friend for wearing what she likes, and my friends seem to feel the same. That being said, I'll ask one certain girlfriend if what I'm wearing is just too girly for the evening sometimes and she'll tell me her honest opinion, and vice versa if we're going to a cocktail party, I'll help her pick out shoes or whatever. No harm no foul--we're both more than aware that clothes are both about the image you want to put forward and adaptable to the situation you're in.

But I remember being younger and having girl friends make mean comments about me whenever I dare wear a skirt or "too much" make-up (again, that means like mascara and lipstick instead of just one or the other). One day about six years ago I put on what I thought was a pretty ordinary outfit--a white t-shirt and a black skirt, with either sneakers or sandals. But it was a skirt instead of shorts and I walked out into the kitchen where my roommate was and knowing that I was going out with some male friends she snapped, "Don't you think you always look so cute?" (Yes. But at the time, no. And it hurt my feelings.)

That's what Holly, one of the commenters at Utopian Hell, gets at. Cattiness can often tell us more about women and how we feel about conforming to sexual images that are crafted to appeal to men even more than any particular outfit can. The women who jump all over Astarte resent her because she is not conforming to a look they feel they have to. But jumping all over a woman for what you see as conforming too much comes from the same place--resentment at the standard now focused not on the woman perceived as not trying but now on the woman who seems to be succeeding all too well.

Like I pointed out below in picking on Lithwick's worrying on the issue of working moms vs stay-at-home moms, it's time to step out and see that women are being falsely pitted against each other for some platonic ideal of male approval in order to disempower us. The ideal male approval is a lie, the idea that some look is ideally feminine or feminist is a lie, it's all bullshit.

161 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think Astarte's point (though I obviously can't speak for her) was that Ann Coulter uses her image as part of a campaign to dictate ideal femininity for other women, so her image is fair game.

-Linnet

10/18/2004

 
Blogger wolfa said...

This is something that irritates me, too: the "why are you so dressed up" questions. Sometimes I like to wear a skirt, or mascara, or the colour pink, and I don't need to hear about how I'm being oppressed by the patriarchy blah fucking blah.

I had one person in my grad program bring it up every time I wore not-jeans, and not in the sort of "you look nice today" way. Drove me up the wall. (That was probably because she was competitive, and wanted the dresses up label for herself. I think.)

Or when I went to a picnic with all the oh-so-progressive people who spent all their time saying how pink was so horrible, they'd never wear pink, it's too girly, it's -- well, I like pink, it happens to look good on me, and it makes me feel happy. I don't tell people to dress up more or wear makeup it will make them look so pretty, but don't tell me to dress down, either. Both are equally obnoxious.

Drives me crazy, really: quit forcing in this false dichotomy "feminist woman (wears black pants)" vs. "feminine woman (wears pink dresses)"; "feminist woman (works a power-job)" vs. "feminine woman (stays at home with the kids)". There are all sorts of false dichotomies around, and I think they're dangerous.

10/18/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

They may not mean to, but women who say catty things about feminine clothes are reinforcing the idea that feminists are bitter because men don't like them. I reject that notion--most of the time when women cat on each other for looking nice, they are jealous. To do so with some "feminist" veneer is anything but.

10/18/2004

 
Blogger Astarte said...

Jesus Mary, Blogger's comment system sucks.

Linnet hit it right on the head. What had me torn on the whole thing about whether or not it's hurtful to women as a whole to point out exactly the image that Ann Coulter is purposefully trying to display. I used a very particular set of stories to illustrate the point because it's close to me.

Nevertheless, something in what you said, and since this whole thing stemmed from language, I thought I'd point it out:

And the other side of that is it's really not cool to pick on women who like to wear a little lipstick and pull themselves together and look nice.Pull themselves together and look nice? I'm 'together' and look quite nice in a pair of jeans and a clean t-shirt with my hair up. It doesn't require make-up or skirts to make one be 'pulled together'. That implies that anyone who doesn't is just sort of a mess. I know you don't mean it that way, but that came off as a bit of a covert backhand.

But here's the thing. There's this all kind of happy-happy joy-joy, be-whatever-woman-you-want-to thing going around, and that's all fine and great and wonderful, but when it's used to get Ann Coulter off the hook for an image that she uses to harm other women, we've got a problem. There is a severe difference between dressing the way you want to for freedom's sake and dressing the way you want to in order to bludgeon other people with it.

But, in the end, I'm really defending men. I think we've been a little too harsh on them, lately, and this is just one of the examples. If a man can't point out something rather obvious, then we're enforcing the man-hater paradigm whether or not we're wearing lipstick while doing it.

10/18/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I was just riffing off what you said. I didn't want to say "doll myself up" or use something other expression that implied that I spend all night over a makeup mirror, and that was the first that came to mind.

Yo, I'm the first to go after Ann Coulter. Like I said, it's not what you wear, but what you say and do and why you wear it. In Coulter's case, she deliberately appeals to an explicitly male standard--she repeatedly holds herself to be superior to other women because she submits herself to a strict standard of male-approved sexuality.

Men don't need defense--just like women, they are all-too-willing to turn themselves into the beauty police. You're lucky you live in a place where men seem to have been schooled enough in feminism to know not to bother women about what they wear. Here men are just as bad if not worse about policing women's looks.

For instance, this is the first boyfriend I've ever had whose managed to avoid busting my ass if he thought I had a gained a few pounds. He's a mensch like you seemed to surrounded by. Another girlfriend of mine complained to me the other night that her boyfriend always complains if she doesn't keep the hair on her neck under her control. And of course we have the charming new tradition of buying your wife breast implants. When I'm dressed down, it's as likely as not that the person that tells me I'd be pretty if I wore some make-up is a man as a woman. When I lived in West Texas, it was usually a man and not a woman telling me what to wear and what to do.

And when it comes to making comments behind some woman's back about how they look, the vast majority of comments I hear come from men--something simple enough to verify if you look around the Internet and read the comments whenever a picture of a woman is available to be viewed, regardless of the context. I mean, think of how many men you have heard crack on Janet Reno for her looks, as if he position had some beauty requirements she didn't fulfill. Look at that thread des femmes links to at Blogging of the President built around the picture of the hippie chicks. It's not the women sizing them up and declaring if they find them fuckable.

Do I blame men? No, I blame people who can't mind their own business or get past judging women by their looks and looks alone.

10/19/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, people should wear what they want (so long as it isn't, y'know, insane. "The plastic explosives I'm wearing are a fashion statement, not a suicide-bombing weapon!" is taking freedom of fashion too far and all that.), but personally, I find lipstick kinda... icky, just because of how it can get on things like glasses and silverware. No, it's not worse than the invisible oils that are on everyone's skin, but I just don't like how it shows up. Yes, that's totally irrational.

I also find high heels disturbing, because they look so uncomfortable. I'm sure many women find them reasonably comfortable after a bit of practice, and I'm silly to project how I would feel wearing them onto how women do.

So... I suppose I feel some discomfort with certain aspect of feminine attire. Then again, at least women don't wear ties as much, and they're by far the dumbest garment in existence.

Julian Elson

10/19/2004

 
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1/07/2006

 
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2/11/2006

 
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2/11/2006

 
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2/11/2006

 
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2/15/2006

 
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4/27/2006

 
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5/17/2006

 
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5/18/2006

 
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5/18/2006

 
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Anonymous Anonymous said...

.





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Anonymous Anonymous said...

.





Hi matey

I'm sure it was this blog I was reading a while back where someone was looking for an SEO tool for driving more traffic and get more hits for their website.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

.









RE: business insurance



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Anonymous Anonymous said...

.





Hi matey

I'm sure it was this blog I was reading a while back where someone was looking for an SEO tool for driving more traffic and get more hits for their website.

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If anyone else has any good ideas for driving more traffic to blogs/websites then please share with your online business blog buddies. Ta ;-)


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