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Monday, December 06, 2004

One ring to rule them all

At feministing, there is a good discussion going of the place of the engagement ring in a feminist's life. The interesting thing is that the discussion veered quickly over to male anger over what is perceived as female-driven demands to obtain this particular bauble, and how this male anger can be dealt with.

While I understand that it's maddening for some men to have women demand entirely too expensive rings as a symbol of engagement, it's time to take a breath and remember that the engagement ring is not a symbol of male oppression, but of female oppression.

Wedding rings used to be good enough. Escalating materialism has a lot to do with why engagement rings, which traditionally have diamonds on them and are more expensive than wedding rings, have grown in popularity, but that's not the entire story. It's telling that the engagement ring rose in popularity at the same time that women began demanding that their husbands wear their wedding rings.

Nowadays, it's so common for men to sport their wedding rings proudly that we forget that most men didn't even have one, much less wear one not that long ago. I remember an episode of the show "Maude" I saw in reruns where Maude asks her husband to accept and wear a wedding ring when they renew their vows and he balks. Why? Because he sees it as a sign that she possesses him. Rightfully, she points out that if that's true, then her ring is a sign that he possesses her. At the end, they both sport rings and the meaning of the ring is subtly changed from possession to commitment. (I point this out in the comments at feministing.)

The change was so rapid a lot of us might have missed it. My father wore his wedding ring when married to my mother sporadically. He's, well, married to his ring with his new wife. The old wedding ring was like a dog pissing on his property. The new one is a symbol of fellowship, love, and commitment. Much nicer. But it undermines male dominance. Enter the engagement ring.

Gaudy engagement rings have two functions--to demonstrate a man's wealth and to demonstrate that a woman is taken. Men do not wear engagement rings. They do not function as display cases for wealth or as territory that is staked out.

But women often push for these rings, which confuses the issue. Why do women want them if they are symbols of their oppression? Shit, for the same reason that women gleefully embrace the white wedding dress, which traditionally advertises their sexual status. The pressure to conform generally outweighs the considerations of dignity. I was engaged to be married once. I was given a ring, and I enjoyed wearing it. It was stylish and cool, and my friends cooed over me and my good fortune to be getting married. I was in love and of course I saw the ring as a symbol of that, so it wasn't something that I questioned. Being a lower-status female, it was easy to fall into the trap of feeling like I'm something special because a man has laid claim to me. And soon he would even consent to wearing a ring of his own!

But it bugged all the same. Men and women both would demand my left hand to look at it, while my boyfriend would stand there looking proud of himself. He meant well, but I felt like he was....getting away with something.

Sara in the comments of feministing says:

How can we, as feminists, lessen the pressure on the men in our lives? Not just boyfriends and husbands, but brothers, friends, and sons? I'm very interested to see if any of you have any ideas.

A simple answer will suffice: Don't buy into the rings. Since they usually symbolize female oppression, it's obvious that men will look to women for signals on their acceptability. If an unsure man turns to a feminist girlfriend and she's eager for a ring, then of course he will trust her opinion.

Not to say that it's entirely the responsibility of women to rid ourselves of this problem. But on a personal level, it's not foolish to expect that some education might be necessary. There's a lot of reasons to be hostile about engagement rings. Just let that pressure go.

430 Comments:

Blogger zuzu said...

Then, of course, there's the DeBeers diamond cartel, which pushes diamonds while it hoards them to inflate the price. And the buggers depreciate rapidly, too, so any value an engagement ring might have as something to hock if things go bad is diminished.

12/06/2004

 
Blogger Eric V said...

I'm not sure how a diamond ring can symbolize oppression of women when the oppressor does not see it as such. The way I see it buying a ring is not a sign of posession or territory but rather a demontration that you have disposable income. If you can spend 2 months salary on a shiny rock then you can spare money for a house,car family etc.. Ironically the man has to make an irresposible purchase to prove that he will be a resposible husband and father.

The DeBeers cartel has been running what is probably the most sucessfull marketing scam in history. After it takes some serious savvy to convince people that a) a diamond is forever and b) a second hand diamond is worthless. Heck if diamond production were not rationed by the cartel they would probably lose their status as precious stones.

12/06/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

Eric, the part you're skipping is that the demonstration is not simply of disposable income. It's the *man's* demonstration of his financial prowess, and his ability and interest in providing financial support to his female partner. Note that there is no tradition of women demonstrating *their* vast disposable income by giving jewelry to their men.

The sexual-exchange subtext is also not very, well, subtle. There's a reason it has traditionally been considered inappropriate to give jewelry to a woman other than your fianceé or wife.

12/06/2004

 
Blogger Eric V said...

Point taken , but you know I would have preferred to demonstrate my disposable income on something more practical , like a big screen TV :-). Luckily my wife was sensible and though I had to buy the rock it was much less than 2 mo salary.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

"Had to"? Or what? Did she force you into the jeweler's at gunpoint?

Again, it's not an issue of your wife being frugal or your preference being a TV. It's that engagement rings are a tradition whereby a man demonstrates he can lavish money on his future wife, and she gains status thereby. (Don't think for a minute that women do not compete with each other as to who has the most expensive "rock.)

Interestingly, there is not the same ostentation or display (for the most part) in WEDDING rings. A plain gold band is considered perfectly reasonable. You generally do not see married women competing to see who has the most expensive filigree or the most prestigious jeweler for her band.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

But isn't it possible that both men and women are oppressed by engagement rings? Don't certain traditions oppress all who obey them? A number of thoughts occur to me when I reflect on this theme, some of them contradictory. It seems to me a religious liberal might argue that marriage is, in some sense, an oppression of both men and women - change the word "oppress" to "submit". The man and woman both submit themselves to each other. I know a liberal Methodist who describes marriage in about these terms. Or perhaps they might change the phrasing and argue a man and woman submit themselves to God when engaging in such a sacred union as marriage ("What God has brought together, let no man put apart."). A religious conservative might accept that phrasing. In some societies the upper-classes have shown a fear of the sexual potential of the lower-classes, and promoted marriage among the lower-classes as a way of steering the sexual impulses of the lower-classes into what were considered safe channels. Henry Ford offered generous subsidized housing to his workers, but insisted they put up with life-style inspections, for Ford was looking for sober, prudent men, ready to marry and raise families. Can't this be read as a case of men having to submit to the regulation of their sex lives because of the oppression of men more powerful than themselves? In most feudal agricultural societies it was assumed that no man could be allowed to marry till he had some property, and those who had no property should never marry nor ever have sex. Europe in the Middle Ages was sending 10% to 15% of every generation off to monastaries and nunneries, which is how the landless sons and daughters of farmers were dealt with. Christopher Hill, the famous English historian, remarks in his book Century Of Revolution that the problem of the non-first son was only now becoming clear to historians. The first born son got what property there might be, any other sons suffered with nothing. Doesn't this amount to a sexual oppression which arises first as an income oppression? The rich oppress the poor, and part of that oppression is sexual, and when we speak of these things we need to remember that we are talking about things that men are doing to other men. A simplistic reading of cultural symbols leads only to "Men oppress women" but in our daily, lived lives all around us we see on a daily basis how much more complex the reality is. Men are oppressed too, in a thousand ways, through culture, tradition, law, the system, other men. Although the word "feminist" refers to a group of writers so diverse in their thinking that summary is nearly impossible, still I might suggest that one weakness of much of this writing is the extent to which it consistently overlooks or underplays the extent of male oppression of other males. Though feminists have become better about looking at issues of class, these issues are normally thought of as issues of income, wealth or status. The sexual aspects of class oppression rarely get a full reckoning. Likewise, though women have less power than men, they are not powerless, and they too have their sphere of influence where they can fight back, negotiate, manuever, and oppress. Engagement rings, I think, are best seen as a cultural symbol whose meaning is in constant flux. Engagement rings are a battleground, with every side trying to gain enough power to assign a meaning to them, and then manuever such that they can come out the winner, given whatever meaning has been assigned. The boyfriend who smiles and seems smug and self-satisfied, the wife who wants her husband to wear a ring, the husband who wears the ring or doesn't, the young women who gloats over her ring and shows it to her friends, the other young woman who refuses to wear a ring, these are all actors on a stage competing both to define what the ring means, and then to come out the winners given the meanings they know have been assigned.

12/07/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think there's an important distinction between sexual oppression and race or class oppression expressed via sex. It would of course be a mistake to suggest that men are not oppressed, because clearly they are, but to say that men are oppressed by women because they are men is quite another matter.

Engagement rings are about class (or property), yes, but they are also about gender; a man visibly marks his income and his "claim" on a woman's body without being so marked himself. This is the broad cultural norm, and honestly, I'm not buying the "constant flux" argument. It seems obfuscatory to me. It's true that a ring doesn't mean exactly the same thing to every person who has one — but neither does anything. That doesn't mean we can't discuss the most common manifestations of the tradition.

Oppressors very rarely recognize their behaviour as oppressive. That doesn't mean it isn't.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Lawrence, you know that I consistently talk about how men are hurt by taking on their own roles, even though a loto the hurt is a by-product of constraints put on them to ensure their own dominance. It's safe to say, though, that when men oppress others through sexual displays of dominance, women are often even more victimized.

The thing that jumps out at me in your examples, lawrence, is that they all spring out of the Christian view of marriage, which Paul explains pretty clearly--women submit to their husbands like men submit to the the Lord, and in return husbands are to love their wives as the Lord loves them.

Men have oppressed each other with sexual humiliations all through history, and in most, if not all cases, the humiliation involves outright calling the humiliated man a female or at least implying that he's emasculated. What's interesting to me is that in the course of these humiliations, sometimes women get even more victimized as a side effect. For instance, feudal landowners would rape the wives of their serfs to demonstrate that they are bigger, more manly men than their serfs. That is no doubt humiliating and upsetting for the serf, but it's his wife who is getting raped there. Ford's inspections of his workers homes are a variation on that theme--Ford's way of saying that he is better adept and keeping the wives of his employees in line by inspecting their abilities to keep house properly.

The intersections of class and sex are interesting, and the engagement ring brings up a lot of issues. The women who demand super-expensive rings are both accepting second-class status and negotiating a way to be at the top of their class. In other words, she may not be as good as a man, but she's the best of the women, since she can bag more expensive gifts than other women. If cars had feelings, Ferraris would probably feel superior to Toyotas, even though they are all just cars, you know.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Catarina - the Swede said...

I find the ring-thing interesting because traditions differ. In Sweden the engagement ring is worn by both man and woman, and it's a simple gold band. The weddingring is traditionally only given to the woman; but nowadays men usually carry it too - and it's still a simple gold band but the weddingring can have some stones in it. So, in Sweden you can't tell if a man is married or "just" engaged, while it's very obvious on a woman, also determining if she's a miss or a mrs. If we ever used those titles, which we don't.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger wolfa said...

Of course, the other solution is just for both to wear engagement rings. I know a couple who did that (well, are doing, since they're engaged and not yet married). When I saw the guy with a ring, I asked if it was engagement or marriage, he said engagement, they're getting married in I forget when. If you don't want a ring, don't have one -- but the other solution is for both people to have one (like wedding rings).

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Jessica Feministing said...

Amanda, I'm so glad you continued this discussion here. Especially since Feministing seems to have been taken over lately by these weirdo men's rights people. (way to take them on in comments though!)

And I'm super jealous of your post title...I wanted a Lord of the Rings inspired one as well, but I just couldn't get it together. Kudos!

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Hugo said...

I'll add something to this at my place later this morning with a trackback; very thoughtful discussion.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Roxanne said...

As I said at Feministing, I think both rings are bad. My husband doesn't own me and I don't own him. That's what we tell each other, anyway.

However, if he wants to take me to St. Mark's to yell that he loves me at the top of his lungs, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Q Grrl said...

"I'm not sure how a diamond ring can symbolize oppression of women when the oppressor does not see it as such. The way I see it buying a ring is not a sign of posession or territory but rather a demontration that you have disposable income. If you can spend 2 months salary on a shiny rock then you can spare money for a house,car family etc.. Ironically the man has to make an irresposible purchase to prove that he will be a resposible husband and father."

The rewards that a man garners for marrying far outweigh having to spend two months salary. On average men earn more than women; and on average married men make more than single men. Men are more likely to get raises if it is known that they are "saving" for a ring. In this sense, proving that you can "afford" a wife is very much an act of possession. One affords cars, or houses, or clothes. One does not afford another human being. Or at least, if one is "affording" another human being, that person should be honest and admit that.

You can argue that marriage brings with it a greater likelihood of child rearing, needing a house, reliable transportation, etc., but employers are aware of this and tend to reward those "responsible" males who are choosing this route. On the other hand, a woman's engagement ring or wedding band often signal the same messages to employers but with the opposite effect: employers are sexist enough to think that a woman will become pregnant, leave work to stay at home with the child, and lose valuable training/work experience in the process. Therefore women are paid less, passed over for promotion, and kept out of key, high level possessions. And because in the US an employer is not allowed to ask about marital status in job interviews, the ring indeed is a social control, advertising that this woman might just meet the employers worst fears (no matter how unfounded).

12/07/2004

 
Blogger Ron said...

My betrothed has been a feminist for many years; Woman's Studies major in college and now is a post-parnum nurse. Did she want a ring? Hell yes, and she wanted to be asked "properly". She knew it was sexist, I knew it was sexist, but she wanted the ring. I think it is a ridiculous waste of money, especially when we are saving for the most expensive party we will ever throw. She makes more money than I do. And what did I get? Nothing. (Actually she offered, but to spend even more money just seemed stupid.) If I had my choice, I'd have saved that money and used it to improve our house. Instead, I spent a little over a month's salary, so my betrothed would have a pretty ring with real stones.

I think a more honest expression of my love for her was building a fence so she could bring her dog over. This was before she moved in with me. I'm not a dog person, but they were a package deal. Can't show off a fence to all her friends though.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

"The thing that jumps out at me in your examples, lawrence, is that they all spring out of the Christian view of marriage"

I find the arguments of my liberal but Christian friends to be the most challenging reinterpretations of marriage as a challenge to the feminist argument that it amounts to something bad. Their arguments are within a framework that right-wingers might almost be able to agree with. Maybe Hugo will (or already has?) spell out his view of marriage, he is himself both left-leaning and Christian. There is a language that recasts marriage as an oppression of equals, equally and happily oppressed. I grew up in a secular family and I'm as completely agnostic as anyone I know. I don't understand the religious mind. But I'm trying.

12/07/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

I think that any language casting mutual responsibility and obligations, freely chosen and equally shared, as "happy oppression" has a hell of a long way to go.

Don't certain traditions oppress all who obey them?To the same degree, Lawrence? I don't think so.

12/08/2004

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

"I'm not buying the "constant flux" argument. It seems obfuscatory to me. It's true that a ring doesn't mean exactly the same thing to every person who has one — but neither does anything."

If the meaning of engagement rings is not in constant flux, then why are we having this conversation? Is Amanda getting paid big money to write her weblog? Are we getting paid big money to leave comments on her site? No, none of us are getting paid, so what is our motivation? Our only motivation is the craving for the ability to assign meaning to this important cultural symbol which, whether we love it or hate, has an influence on our lives.

12/08/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the meaning of engagement rings is not in constant flux, then why are we having this conversation?

?

I don't understand this. At all. Perhaps we have different understandings of the phrase "constant flux." To me, your saying that the meaning of an engagement ring is in "constant flux" is akin to saying that it has NO accepted meaning, therefore that discussing the symbolism of the ring is pointless.

But the symbolism is not in constant flux. The tradition is overwhelmingly that a man buys it for a woman to wear and by wearing it she indicates to anyone who cares to look that she is "spoken for" (interesting phrase) before the wedding actually occurs, while he wears no such symbol (and thus displays nothing about his own sexual availability or lack thereof) until after the wedding. The meaning of that is not in "constant flux." I cannot reasonably take that to mean that she is showing off HER earning power, or showing how much she likes to skydive, or whatever. There is a range of reasonable interpretations here, but it's pretty darn small.

Our only motivation is the craving for the ability to assign meaning to this important cultural symbol which, whether we love it or hate, has an influence on our lives.Yes, but that's not what "in constant flux" means. If you mean "constantly debated" or "under constant discussion," fine, but even that comes pretty close to saying "eh, it's all relative, so you have no right to complain."

12/08/2004

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

"I don't understand this. At all. Perhaps we have different understandings of the phrase "constant flux." To me, your saying that the meaning of an engagement ring is in "constant flux" is akin to saying that it has NO accepted meaning, therefore that discussing the symbolism of the ring is pointless."

I meant the opposite. The ring has an accepted meaning, but it is possible for that meaning to change over time, which is why we are having this conversation. If there was no hope of changing the meaning of engagement rings, then we would think it pointless to converse on the subject. On some level we all understand that it is possible to change the meaning of the ring, which is why we engage in this conversation. Each of us is hoping to have an influence on what the future meaning of the ring will be.


"But the symbolism is not in constant flux. The tradition is overwhelmingly that a man buys it for a woman to wear and by wearing it she indicates to anyone who cares to look that she is "spoken for""

The meaning has changed consistently over the last 500 years, which is what I meant by "constant flux." Engagement rings were once something royalty did, now it is something the masses enagage in. The meaning of the ring has changed at least as much as the meaning of the marriage license has. Once reserved to royalty, the use of the marriage license has become universal in all secular states, and marks the replacement of the Church by the State in matters of marriage. In his book "Century of Revolution" the historian Christopher Hill points out that after the Restoration, for many decades England had a policy of charging a high price for marriage licences - they were a status symbol, reserved to the upper and middle classes. The lower classes had common law marriage, and that was all they had.


"Yes, but that's not what "in constant flux" means. If you mean "constantly debated" or "under constant discussion," fine,"

I meant "constant change." There is no 50 year period out of the last 500 where it had the same meaning, or was in use by the same demographics. If you're thinking middle class families exchanged wedding rings 500, or even 200, years ago as they do today, that's incorrect. If you're thinking men proposed as individuals to women, who had the power to say no as individuals, 300 years ago then that's incorrect. Marriage today is between individuals but in Europe till the 1800s marriage was a matter that families entered into and negotiated. If you think Elenor of Acquataine flounced around her flat wondering aloud to the maid when King Henry was going to "pop the question" you've got the wrong view of things. If you think marriage rings always had diamonds in them, that's not quite right. Western marriage practice has seen a complete over-turning since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. The disappearance of home industry ended the era of wife as labor-hand, the substitution of monetary exchange for barter changed the meaning of property from something your family held to something that could be bought and sold. Karl Marx quipped "The difference between a prostitute and a wife is that the one sells herself retail, the other wholesale," but things have changed quite a bit since he made the remark. The emergence and rise to prominence of a broad middle class, a class out-numbering the classes above and below it, meant marriage practice was increasingly identified with whatever the middle class did, as oppossed to the aristocracy. Only when middle class men began offering engagement rings to their wives-to-be does the ring begin to have anything like its modern meaning, and it gained that meaning at a time of unprecedented awakening regarding women's rights, and the habit of middle-class engagement rings became entrenched during the same decades that the movement for women's right to vote gained militancy. As with so many things we associate with antiquity the "tradition" of giving rings has been developing constantly and has been constantly questioned and fought over by both men and women. If you see the feminist revolution of the 1960s as the beginning of something that had no prior history, you're thinking on the matter is misguided. Although for scale and success nothing matches the feminism of the 1960s, it never would have been possible without the proceeding 200 years of turmoil, debate, and struggle. More so, even within the Western countries, that debate and turmoil has played out in different ways in different countries, with the most obvious differences, regarding both marriage practice and engagement practice, existing between the Protestant and Catholic countries.


"but even that comes pretty close to saying "eh, it's all relative, so you have no right to complain.""

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here at all.

12/09/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Lawrence, the meaning we attach to symbols sometimes is frustratingly hard to change, which is why sometimes it's better to toss the symbol on its ass.

However, I agree with you completely that meaning is never set in stone--hell the meaning of a word changes in the context of the sentence: "My cat looked so cute playing with a string." vs. "The lion is the largest cat." And the same is true of symbols--look how swiftly we managed to change the meaning of the wedding ring, as I point out in the post.

Still, the general meaning of a symbol, instead of the private meaning, is still going to be up for consensus. Anyone person can claim that the woman only got the engagement ring but that means nothing, but no one else has to believe him/her.

12/10/2004

 
Blogger misteraitch said...

Some men (admittedly, perhaps, not that many) do indeed wear engagement rings: me, for example.

12/15/2004

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

"Still, the general meaning of a symbol, instead of the private meaning, is still going to be up for consensus. Anyone person can claim that the woman only got the engagement ring but that means nothing, but no one else has to believe him/her."

Absolutely, but we see that concensus being fought everyday, don't we? Among my friends, when they get married, often every aspect of the marriage ceremony has been rethought and recast in personal terms. I've a friend who wore a red dress to her wedding, because she felt (and she'd read) that red is the color of personal power. She was trying to say that her wedding was an act of personal empowerment, rather than a disempowering act. I've any number of female friends who kept their last names after getting married, or who had their best friend "give" them away rather than have their father do it.

These were marriages that needed to be explained. They did not rely on tradition to explain themselves. An observer like me pretty much had to ask what the symbols meant if we wanted to understand.

So, as you say, the general meaning of a symbol is still going to be up for consensus, but as I said, that concensus is in constant flux. It is terrain that is being fought over.

1/11/2005

 
Anonymous Jeff Glasse said...

What strikes me in reading the various comments here (as well as the somewhat less genial “discourse” in the discussion on feministing) is how frequently people utilize historical allusion, personal anecdotes and ,most distressingly of all, personal value of “tradition,” to obfuscate or avoid a somewhat obvious point: that this particular tradition – the exchange of a (significant amount ) a man’s money for a piece of jewelry which publicly marks a woman as “his” – is anti-feminist. It is as clearly so as unequal wages or laws which deny a woman’s ability to protect her body. Is the obvious binaryism of male-as-provider and female-as-object-of-sexual-objectification even subtle here? Why are so many thoughtful, intelligent women willing to rationalize a practice which, in the interest of equality and fairness, should clearly be left behind?

3/24/2005

 
Anonymous cyberanna said...

Why are so many thoughtful, intelligent women willing to rationalize a practice which, in the interest of equality and fairness, should clearly be left behind?

Because when my boyfriend proposed to me, he had a ring. He knew I didn't require one. He knew I didn't want a diamond (which it wasn't). But he wanted to do something special to mark a special occasion. He thought about whether to do nothing (which my father did for my mother) or to buy some other form of jewelry (which my brother did for his now wife) or to buy me a ring. He decided to go for the ring. I totally didn't expect it. I was totally shocked, and you know, it was a great surprise. Considering the total lack of surprise in engagements for most people (since they expect just what happens -- or even picked out the ring themselves!), I felt lucky. He really got me!

I didn't ask him whether it represented years of female oppression. I was sure it represented a sentiment of love. It probably didn't cost two months salary. (I certainly hope it didn't.)

I'm not sure if we're going to buy wedding rings. I always wanted a wedding ring, because I liked the idea of a physical reminder of a commitment that I made. I liked the symbolism of a circle. Now that I have an engagement ring, I feel that I have those things, and maybe I don't need anything else.

The way I see it, we didn't support the diamond industry, and we're making up the rules as we go along. My style of feminism allows me to consider my life choices as they come up. Maybe I didn't really choose the ring. But I'm certainly not going to think ill of it. I know what the ring means to my partner, and that sets the tone for what it means to me.

7/06/2005

 
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