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Tuesday, January 18, 2005

The emotional side of the Social Security arguments

Fred Vincy at Stone Court has an interesting article on how people's ideas about loss and gain are being played with in the Social Security debates. Which got me to thinking about listening to the Shrub blathering on about Social Security on NPR as I was driving home. I'll admit--their plan confuses me a little bit, which of course is the intention. But if I don't know economics, I do know a little something about rhetoric and that's what I found myself paying attention to.

The first thing that the Shrub made clear is that his message was aimed squarely at people my age. He said something about first starting your job in your mid-20s and how the money will be all gone, blah blah blah. I thought to myself, "That's probably pretty appealing to people who are my age and really are on their first job. Me--I've been working pretty steadily for more than a decade. And that's a decade's worth of my Social Security payments they are going to steal." So, it's a classist argument, which might be a weakness. There's a lot more people like me than people who partied through 6 years of college and only now are considering transistioning from living off Mom and Dad completely to their own job.

And that's their problem. No matter how they phrase it, most of the audience is hearing, I think at least, that everything they've paid into Social Security is gone now so kiss it goodbye. And we don't like that. But, being young, I still hear the message that was aimed at me and over and over again, the phrase that my young ear keeps grabbing at is "private accounts".

To someone my age, that sounds like a checking account. I shit you not, but the first thing that popped into my head was the thought, "Does this mean I'll be able to put my Social Security into my savings account? I hope so, 'cause that's probably safer than the stocks Shrubby Boy has in mind. And then I sort of idly and irresponsibly thought about how I would spend my money if I managed to keep Social Security payments in every check. When you're 27 years old, it's really fucking hard to think about retirement. Not that I'm hugely irresponsible, but I keep thinking about improvements around the house and things like that. I'm not going to start drawing on Social Security for almost 40 years, and that just seems too far off to worry about.

I guarantee you that is what they are hoping will win young people over. Most people pay way less attention to the news than I do, so if I had an idle thought about not having to make Social Security payments every month, then the number of people who are hearing nothing more than 1) You'll never see your money in the future so you are wasting it and 2) We will let you have it now to spend it on whatever you'd like must be in the legions.

Luckily, I know that the Shrub has never exerted an ounce of effort on behalf of anyone but the very wealthy, so I know that whatever the details of the plan, the end result will not be that I can tuck my money into a locally owned bank or spend it on home improvements or do anything that will help keep money in my middle-class community or help out local business or anything like that. In fact, from what I can tell, the only real purpose of this is to wildly inflate the price of stocks so that the wealthy can all cash in when stocks hit the roof, knowing that they will be ahead of the curve on the crash because there's no way that Social Security money will do anything but sit in the accounts it's initially invested in. Seems like a one-time shot to me, but I guess if that happens, big stock holders won't care because they will have made more money than God in a one-time deal and will never have to worry about it again.

374 Comments:

Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Amanda,
A few things about social security.

1) SS isn't guaranteed, by any means. It's only as guaranteed as the political will to guarantee it. That is waning quickly. Whether you think people are being misled to cause this, is immaterial. You think we'll stop trying to change it over the next few years if we can't do it now?

2) They're not trying to "steal your SS taxes from the last ten years." They already stole those. Social security is a pay-as-you-go system. Your taxes are paying current retirees. Your benefits will come from future workers, not in any way be "your taxes". If you want people to stop "stealing" your taxes, maybe it should go into a private account?

3) Whether you think SS is in crisis or not, look at it simply. SS benefits suck. If you average $20K a year income while working, SS gives you $10K. That's less than $1K/month. I don't know how you live, but I don't want to live on that. If you're more affluent, and average $75K/year income, your benefits are a paltry $17K/year. And how do they pay those paltry benefits? By quadrupling SS taxes over the last 60 years. It used to be 3% of your income. Now it's 12% of your income. Sure, they can save the system, but how high do those taxes need to be to pay to avoid slashing the already crappy benefits.

So what's the solution? Benefits are low, taxes are high to pay those benefits. The situation with both appears to get worse following current projections. If I were you, I wouldn't be scared about the future of SS, I'd be *ANGRY* about it. If you took that 12% over the next 40 years and invested it, you'd retire rich. If you take that 12% and put it into Social Security, you have to rely on the good will of future workers to ensure that you don't retire in abject poverty.

I've asked this question before. And I would like to hear an answer from those people who are advocating keeping the current system. Assuming you looked, right now, at the mix of benefits vs. costs. If you could create a Social Security system, would you set it up like ours? I think anyone proposing it would be laughed out of a room.

1/18/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

My bad. I didn't cite a source. Numbers for the above argument were taken from:

http://www.justfacts.com/socialsecurity.htm

1/18/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Brad, quibbling over words like "steal" ain't changing my mind. No matter how much quibbling you do, if BushCo takes a fund that I have been paying in for 10 years and hands it over to their rich friends to buy yachts with it, I will call them a bunch of thieves. Which they are.

1/18/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Benefits are low, taxes are high to pay those benefits. The situation with both appears to get worse following current projections.No, it doesn't. Current projections say benefits in the future will not quite fulfill SS obligations, but will still exceed current benefits. Tiny Revolution frequently has numbers on the subject.

--Omar

1/18/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Amanda,
Correct me if I am wrong, but you previously mentioned that you pay into a pension program *outside* social security. Thus, privatization of social security likely doesn't even affect your fund. If that is the case, and Bush wanted to steal the money that you rightly placed into a true pension fund, I would consider it thievery.

But let me make my point again. Social Security is NOT a retirement fund. Social Security moneys that you put into the system are no longer yours. The government does not guarantee that they'll be around for you later. The government cannot "steal" what you don't "own". In a pension or retirement fund, you have set rules that are followed as far as how long you work, what your benefits are, etc. Those rules are agreed upon *first*. With SS, those rules can be changed, arbitrarily, at any time, by a vote of Congress. What kind of "guarantee" is that?

1/19/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Brad, regardless of your pension program, everyone pays into Social Security and everyone who pays into it gets benefits. I see X amount of money disappear from my check every week for Social Security. I don't want that going to a buncha stockbrokers. Sorry.

1/19/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Amanda,
Ok, so you don't trust the stockbrokers. That's fair. I see your point. A good thing about Bush's plan is that it doesn't force anyone out of the current social security plan. Since you have the belief that the taxes put into social security are somehow "yours", I assume you wouldn't object to me having the option to put mine into stocks?

1/19/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

That would make sense, except I suspect the point is to drain so much money out of Social Security they can claim that it's not there anymore and kill benefits for the rest of us. Either way, we lose.

1/19/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Do you see the flaw in your argument? If social security is by nature a sustainable program where your taxes have some relevance to your benefits, it would make no difference if my tax dollars were no longer available. If you assume that SS actually does require the tax dollars of the wealthy to be sustained, then it is nothing more than welfare. Whether you support welfare or not, let's call a spade a spade. If you don't support privatization, how about means-testing. At least if we make it a true safety net for the poor, rather than an entitlement for all old people, we'll cut a serious portion out of the cost, which people can then actually invest on their own for their retirement.

But as far as I am concerned, you have advocated at least moderate support for my ability to take my own contributions out and choose a better way. Considering where we started this debate, I think that's about as much as I could have hoped for.

1/19/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I agree. I think we should get rid of Social Security, levy a standard income tax and pay pensions only to people over 65 to make less than X amount of dollars a year in pensions, possibly giving them benefits that only raise them up to the average standard of living of their community. But the problem with that is that people start whining that they shouldn't be "punished" for making enough to retire as millionaires. But yeah, we should have just a standard old-age pension. What you fail to see is that Social Security was a compromise.

1/20/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

I understand the compromise. In fact, at the time there was a strong push against creating a "welfare" system for SS, so they deliberately did not structure it as such.

As far as I am concerned, the ideal solution is privatization. But if they can institute means-testing to disqualify the "rich" from eligibility, and it gets my SS tax contribution from 12% down to, say, 4%, I'll take it. That's several thousand dollars a year I could add to my 401k.

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11/06/2005

 
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11/06/2005

 
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11/08/2005

 
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11/09/2005

 
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11/10/2005

 
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11/17/2005

 
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11/17/2005

 
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11/18/2005

 
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11/18/2005

 
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11/18/2005

 
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11/20/2005

 
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11/20/2005

 
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11/20/2005

 
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11/21/2005

 
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11/21/2005

 
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11/21/2005

 
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11/22/2005

 
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11/22/2005

 
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11/22/2005

 
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11/23/2005

 
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11/23/2005

 
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11/24/2005

 
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11/24/2005

 
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11/25/2005

 
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11/25/2005

 
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11/25/2005

 
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11/26/2005

 
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11/27/2005

 
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11/27/2005

 
Anonymous webmasterworld said...

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11/27/2005

 
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11/28/2005

 
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11/29/2005

 
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11/29/2005

 
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11/29/2005

 
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11/30/2005

 
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1/11/2006

 
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1/13/2006

 
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