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Saturday, February 05, 2005

Embryo donation and how the "pro-life" stance actually cheapens life

Salon has a fantastic article today on how pro-life forces are trying to turn embryo donation from what it really is, which is tissue donation, to "adoption", where everyone involved pretends that the donating parents, who are uniformly going to be people who used IVF to conceive, are people that are giving up "children" for adoption. This is an effort to get embryos redefined as people, and Salon tallies up the legal implications nicely.

I want to talk about how this type of redefinition of an embryo to a "child" cheapens life. It cheapens the lives of two kinds of people who are the two who are vulnerable to having their lives cheapened anyway--women, especially infertile women, and children, especially those who are up for adoption.

If you compare the two paradigms of embryo donation that are competing here--one as tissue donation and one as adoption--it becomes clear how the latter really degrades women and our bodies. Tissue donation is something done for the patient, either to save her life or enhance the quality of it. Under this view, IVF is a procedure done to the woman for her own sake, so she can fulfill her potential as a mother and have the experience of pregnancy. This is true whether she uses an embryo she made or one was donated to her.

But if you view embryo donation as "adoption", the way of understanding shifts. When people think of adoption, they then to view it as a couple opening their home to an otherwise unwanted or discarded child. Transfer that view to embryo implantation and you recontextualize it as a woman opening up her body to some unfortunate embryo. Women's bodies are imagined as houses, and uteruses are just first of many beds a child will have. Uterus, crib, twin bed, etc. It's a dehumanizing view of reproduction.

From the other angle, it does well to remember that the vast majority of embryos created for IVF are getting thrown in the trash. There will never be a point where demand for them even approaches the supply, and because they really aren't "children", into the trash they go. But if we start referring to them as "children", what does that say about us as a society? That children who can't find homes go into the trash? Granted, this is exactly the sort of social services that the Republicans are dying to cut, but I would hope the rest of us have more respect than that. You cannot equate an embryo with a child and hope that just upgrades the embryo's status to that of a child. It's going to degrade the status of a child. Embryos are just bundles of cells without feelings, thoughts, memories, or desires. If we're going to just see children as bigger versions of embryos, well, you can see where this is going.

384 Comments:

Blogger Pseudo-Adrienne said...

I want to talk about how this type of redefinition of an embryo to a "child" cheapens life. It cheapens the lives of two kinds of people who are the two who are vulnerable to having their lives cheapened anyway--women, especially infertile women, and children, especially those who are up for adoption.Oh silly Amanda...what made you think the Radical-Right actually *cared* about women and children to begin with? ;-) It's all about making more babies to them after all. It's similar to a business; women are the manufacturing plants and children are the products from that plant. And we all know how big Republicans are on preserving their big corporations and keeping their production lines moving (ie: women and children in this case).

But seriously, as someone who is adopted, I must say that this is highly insulting to me. The very idea that an embryo some where--a cluster of cells--is "equal" to me in humanity is beyond ridiculous. But that's the Radical-Right's wacky definitions of children and "life" for yah.

Transfer that view to embryo implantation and you recontextualize it as a woman opening up her body to some unfortunate embryo. Women's bodies are imagined as houses, and uteruses are just first of many beds a child will have. Uterus, crib, twin bed, etc. It's a dehumanizing view of reproduction.Because Conservatives are far more concerned about the procreation of more children and they believe that you can separate the embryo/fetus from the woman, though she carries it within her, and place more emphasis, value, and humanity on the embryo/fetus than HER!!! As I said, women are just manufacturing plants to these people. To them all women are expected to have children and all women should view pregnancy as a "miracle", and view that embryo to be a precious little baby....and her divine maternal instincts are supposed to kick in then....argh!

If we're going to just see children as bigger versions of embryos, well, you can see where this is going.Oh so that's what my toddler nieces and nephews are!! It is degrading to be equated with being a bigger version of an embryo, but hey, let's remember those wacky definitions of a human being according to the Right. As an adopted child, believe me, this pisses me off. I've been degraded before in other ways for being adopted, but *this*....this just does it for me. What incredible stupidity on the part of the Conservative-Right.

And another thing, since we're far more concerned in pleasing the Radical-Christian-Right than making advances in Medical Science, it's only a matter of time until the U.S. is surpassed by other nations in this particular field.

2/05/2005

 
Blogger Maureen said...

So a female is more of a person as a zygote than as a grown woman. Nice.

2/05/2005

 
Blogger Anne said...

Gotta love the phrase "Microscopic-Americans."

2/05/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahhh..a new drum for abortion fanatics to beat. Saying that the unborn are not human didn't work so now it's time to turn the argument around. Get a grip. There is no competition between embryo and fully developed child. Both should have dignity, both should have protection and both should be allowed to retain what is already theirs...their lives. Throw in a woman who was adopted so pro-lifers will back down and say...ohhhh.. guess we were being insensitive to the poor adopted person. She was so offended by us saying that after her conception she should be protected. We aren't falling for it anymore. Pro-life means valuing ALL life, the preborn, the child, her mother, her father, the aged, heck...we even think it's wrong to mistreat animals. Gee, sorry for caring about others. And contrary to the insane assertions that pro-lifers only care about the unborn, when was the last time you saw Planned Parenthood giving out free clothes and food and medical care? Call any Crisis Pregnancy Center and ask them how they take care of the women they serve, before, during and AFTER childbirth (and yes, even after an abortion)all for free. Then ask Planned Parenthood what they do, and then ask, how much it will cost me?

2/05/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And how, praytell, would you save the millions of concepti that do not implant from certain doom?

Certainly, the fetus police have a moral duty to put an end to this silent, involuntary holocaust.

2/05/2005

 
Blogger Elinor said...

Call any Crisis Pregnancy Center and ask them how they take care of the women they serve, before, during and AFTER childbirth (and yes, even after an abortion)all for free.That seems to me like a fairly rosy view of "crisis pregnancy centres." I'm sure some of them do offer significant help, but I've read of others that offered not much more than a blanket and a bag of diapers.

In any case, raising a child costs thousands and thousands of dollars, and I doubt any crisis pregnancy centre is well-funded enough to reduce that cost significantly over the long term for all its clients, even for all its clients in financial need.

My experience of Planned Parenthood is limited because I've only dealt with clinics in Canada, where government insurance pays for most of their services. Nonetheless, I do understand that they offer free or discounted contraceptives, STD testing, and reproductive health care; the clinics I dealt with also offered counselling, information lines on sexual health, etc. That's their area; they don't do everything, and they don't pretend to. I don't see a problem with that.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Life is life. There is no qualifier. When exactly do pro-abortion liberals think that life begins? It's funny how the environmentalist wing of their ranks will jump up and down ranting about saving some microscopic organism that will be destroyed because of development. Or they will bomb or burn people and property for supposed mis-treatment of ANIMALS. Yet, they can have no commpassion for human life at all, except their own selfish existence. They advocate to keep and increase an archaic eugenics-like practice that serves no one in humanity except their own self-interests...usually the continuance of their immature lifestyles. When they finally come around to respecting ALL life, I might be willing to listen to them when they whine about "torture" done by some troops in Iraq, or about innocent people accidentally killed because the terrorist target was allowed to live next door. How can you claim to have any ground to stand on when it comes to moral issues when you advocate the disgusting murder of living human beings. Don't come preaching to us about anything as long as you support abortion which is more akin to slavery than anything we have ever seen, well, except slavery. You know, that "total domination over another human being" thing. How much more domination could one espouse than when you are flagrantly and nonchalantly deciding who will live and who will die without a blink of an eye. Your problem is fear and hate. You fear growing up and providing for the child you chose to create. Yes, I said "chose". You see, I am, too, "pro-choice". That choice you have when you decide to particiapte in that risky behavior we call sex. Did your mamma or daddy never explain what the consequences of sex could be? Oh, I am sorry, I said consequences. I know you libs hate that word as you wish to go through life without them. Well, too bad, there are consequences to every decision and action we take. Some are good and some are bad. I say, new life in the form of babies is a good consequence. I also say, that death of the soul is the bad consequence of supporting abortion. That leads to all other forms of degrading and abhorrent behavior. Well, we are now seeing the consequences of all of this in the form of loss of control of the reins of our government. You see, when the chips are down, we need grown ups in charge. THe children have had their chance and have shown to be lacking. Thank God we have adults to come in and clean up the mess. Now if we could just get the children to go back to their rooms, we would actually survive the World War we find ourselves fighting.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Life is life. There is no qualifier. When exactly do pro-abortion liberals think that life begins? It's funny how the environmentalist wing of their ranks will jump up and down ranting about saving some microscopic organism that will be destroyed because of development. Or they will bomb or burn people and property for supposed mis-treatment of ANIMALS. Yet, they can have no commpassion for human life at all, except their own selfish existence. They advocate to keep and increase an archaic eugenics-like practice that serves no one in humanity except their own self-interests...usually the continuance of their immature lifestyles. When they finally come around to respecting ALL life, I might be willing to listen to them when they whine about "torture" done by some troops in Iraq, or about innocent people accidentally killed because the terrorist target was allowed to live next door. How can you claim to have any ground to stand on when it comes to moral issues when you advocate the disgusting murder of living human beings. Don't come preaching to us about anything as long as you support abortion which is more akin to slavery than anything we have ever seen, well, except slavery. You know, that "total domination over another human being" thing. How much more domination could one espouse than when you are flagrantly and nonchalantly deciding who will live and who will die without a blink of an eye. Your problem is fear and hate. You fear growing up and providing for the child you chose to create. Yes, I said "chose". You see, I am, too, "pro-choice". That choice you have when you decide to particiapte in that risky behavior we call sex. Did your mamma or daddy never explain what the consequences of sex could be? Oh, I am sorry, I said consequences. I know you libs hate that word as you wish to go through life without them. Well, too bad, there are consequences to every decision and action we take. Some are good and some are bad. I say, new life in the form of babies is a good consequence. I also say, that death of the soul is the bad consequence of supporting abortion. That leads to all other forms of degrading and abhorrent behavior. Well, we are now seeing the consequences of all of this in the form of loss of control of the reins of our government. You see, when the chips are down, we need grown ups in charge. THe children have had their chance and have shown to be lacking. Thank God we have adults to come in and clean up the mess. Now if we could just get the children to go back to their rooms, we would actually survive the World War we find ourselves fighting.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Life is life. There is no qualifier. When exactly do pro-abortion liberals think that life begins? It's funny how the environmentalist wing of their ranks will jump up and down ranting about saving some microscopic organism that will be destroyed because of development. Or they will bomb or burn people and property for supposed mis-treatment of ANIMALS. Yet, they can have no commpassion for human life at all, except their own selfish existence. They advocate to keep and increase an archaic eugenics-like practice that serves no one in humanity except their own self-interests...usually the continuance of their immature lifestyles. When they finally come around to respecting ALL life, I might be willing to listen to them when they whine about "torture" done by some troops in Iraq, or about innocent people accidentally killed because the terrorist target was allowed to live next door. How can you claim to have any ground to stand on when it comes to moral issues when you advocate the disgusting murder of living human beings. Don't come preaching to us about anything as long as you support abortion which is more akin to slavery than anything we have ever seen, well, except slavery. You know, that "total domination over another human being" thing. How much more domination could one espouse than when you are flagrantly and nonchalantly deciding who will live and who will die without a blink of an eye. Your problem is fear and hate. You fear growing up and providing for the child you chose to create. Yes, I said "chose". You see, I am, too, "pro-choice". That choice you have when you decide to particiapte in that risky behavior we call sex. Did your mamma or daddy never explain what the consequences of sex could be? Oh, I am sorry, I said consequences. I know you libs hate that word as you wish to go through life without them. Well, too bad, there are consequences to every decision and action we take. Some are good and some are bad. I say, new life in the form of babies is a good consequence. I also say, that death of the soul is the bad consequence of supporting abortion. That leads to all other forms of degrading and abhorrent behavior. Well, we are now seeing the consequences of all of this in the form of loss of control of the reins of our government. You see, when the chips are down, we need grown ups in charge. THe children have had their chance and have shown to be lacking. Thank God we have adults to come in and clean up the mess. Now if we could just get the children to go back to their rooms, we would actually survive the World War we find ourselves fighting.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Life is life. There is no qualifier. When exactly do pro-abortion liberals think that life begins? It's funny how the environmentalist wing of their ranks will jump up and down ranting about saving some microscopic organism that will be destroyed because of development. Or they will bomb or burn people and property for supposed mis-treatment of ANIMALS. Yet, they can have no commpassion for human life at all, except their own selfish existence. They advocate to keep and increase an archaic eugenics-like practice that serves no one in humanity except their own self-interests...usually the continuance of their immature lifestyles. When they finally come around to respecting ALL life, I might be willing to listen to them when they whine about "torture" done by some troops in Iraq, or about innocent people accidentally killed because the terrorist target was allowed to live next door. How can you claim to have any ground to stand on when it comes to moral issues when you advocate the disgusting murder of living human beings. Don't come preaching to us about anything as long as you support abortion which is more akin to slavery than anything we have ever seen, well, except slavery. You know, that "total domination over another human being" thing. How much more domination could one espouse than when you are flagrantly and nonchalantly deciding who will live and who will die without a blink of an eye. Your problem is fear and hate. You fear growing up and providing for the child you chose to create. Yes, I said "chose". You see, I am, too, "pro-choice". That choice you have when you decide to particiapte in that risky behavior we call sex. Did your mamma or daddy never explain what the consequences of sex could be? Oh, I am sorry, I said consequences. I know you libs hate that word as you wish to go through life without them. Well, too bad, there are consequences to every decision and action we take. Some are good and some are bad. I say, new life in the form of babies is a good consequence. I also say, that death of the soul is the bad consequence of supporting abortion. That leads to all other forms of degrading and abhorrent behavior. Well, we are now seeing the consequences of all of this in the form of loss of control of the reins of our government. You see, when the chips are down, we need grown ups in charge. THe children have had their chance and have shown to be lacking. Thank God we have adults to come in and clean up the mess. Now if we could just get the children to go back to their rooms, we would actually survive the World War we find ourselves fighting.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A comment so nice, he posted it twice...I mean, four times!

- kja

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, didn't mean to post my opinions four times. I guess my trigger finger was happy.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why stop at likening abortion to slavery?

Why no go full on and compare it to the Holocaust?

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suppose that when you stated that slavery and abortion are in any way analogous, you missed the part where slaves were born and became independent of the womb.

Or, alternatively, I missed the part where slaves were biologically attached to their masters for intravenous nourishment for the entirety of their lives in bondage.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also, as we all know, women always have a choice in whether or not they engage in sexual intercourse, without exception, and every single time they consent to sex, they consent to pregnancy.

Rape doesn't exist. Condoms don't break. Everyone has easy access to contraceptives and EC at any time, day or night, as pro-life doctors never deny these things to women.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Furthermore, there are no people in any part of the world whatsoever that are ill-informed as to the actual consequences of sexual intercourse. Sexual education is a mandatory part of every classroom, and all children have loving, attentive parents who impart wise advice about the nature of sexual relations in a frank and honest manner.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

[...] we would actually survive the World War we find ourselves fighting.Yet another confirmation of what I have come to think of as the "Soldiers für Hinckel" hypothesis, named for a scene in Chaplin's film "The Great Dictator." It's all about making more babymachines and soldiers for God and Empire.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, abortion is WORSE than the Holocaust! As horrible as the Holocaust was, with it's six-million Jews murdered and a couple of a million more people killed in war, it doesn't compare to the 40,000,000+ lives that have been snuffed out before they even had a chance. It's very sad that you libs who protest all the time about YOUR freedoms, or any perceived threat against them, have joined in the process that denies the most basic freedom, that of life, to so many.
By the way, did you know that Planned Parenthood was formed by a friend of Adolf Hitler who joined him in the ideology which said that there was a master race and all others should be destroyed. Her name was Margaret Sanger and her writings and quotes from over the years show exactly why she, the founder of the company that performs most abortions, loved abortions. Her goal was to rid the world of the "mongrel races" by killing them before they are born. She even stated as much on many occasions. Ever notice that most abortion clinics, especially Planned Parenthood, are in or very near minority neighborhoods?

And to the other poster, are you telling me that to have rights, you must be independant. You're telling me that the baby in the womb has no rights? Typical elitism that still claims that YOU have total domination over another human being. The mother is there to protect and nourish the baby, not to decide if it lives or dies.

Exactly, next poster, everytime a man or woman concents to sex, pregnancy is highly probable. Sure rape exists, but why does a baby conceived of a horrible and brutal crime deserve to cease to exist due to a horrible and gruesome death? While the woman did not choose to have sex, in the case of rape, and therefore had no say in her impending pregnancy, why does she then get the option of murdering her baby?
As to your attempt to dilute the facts with "condoms don't break", how many abortions are done as of the result of rape and failure of condoms? Do you even know? I bet you really don't care. Your support of the death cult of liberalism is so entrenched that nothing realy matters to you except death and despair.

And the next poster, having ill-informed people engaging in sex be more informed is the entire point of abstinence programs. No one really believes that all who hear this message will refrain from having sex. That would be as foolish as those who believe teaching children how to use condoms and how to give Lewinski's helps them to make good decisions. The point is to raise awareness about the bad consequences of having sex under the wrong circumstances. I know you just don't understand. Because killing the babies is simply the easier way out. It is the cowards way out. It is the monster's way out.
I would say, in closing, that those failed parents who do not teach their children about the consequences of sex are no better or worse than those failed parents who don't teach their children the value of life. Those same parents who teach their children that whatever they "feel" must be right, regardless of facts. Those same failed parents who don't teach their children love is always better than hate. I see there is no shortage of the offspring of those failed parents here or anywhere you find liberals.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually I never said anything about "God and Empire". What I talking about is called survival. You would know about this if you cared about anyone other than yourself. Yourselfish interests only go as far as they matter to what happens or doesn't happen directly to YOU. I would like to see this nation survive. All of us, even you. If you don't want to have babies, that's fine. But if you are going to engage in sex, you should have certain procedures to absolutely prevent unwanted pregnancies before they occur. Oooooh, I bet that set you off into a hate-inspired rant. You probably thinkthat's a terrible facsist idea. "How dare I tell you that you can't have babies", or something like that. Selfishness is what you are driven by. You would not dare tie the tubes because, "It's MY body". But, you wouldn't hesitate to murder a baby because "It's MY body". If you would stop and listen to the excuses you all come up with FOR abortion versus my ONE argument against it....life that deserves a chance. Do you not see that pro-life people are always doing battle for life, while you are busy advocatingdestroying life. You will see the light someday, I only hope it is not too late. By the way, I am praying for all of you, right now. I pray that you will value life over self-interests. I pray that you will work to protect the innocent. I pray that those same "human shields" that went to Baghdad in support of the brutal dictator, Saddam Hussein, would be so quick to jump in front of the abortionist's scissors or vaccuum hose. I highly doubt there are any volunteers here. "Deathfor all who get in my way! should be your slogans at protests and on all your bumpers.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Anne said...

Good show! You've hit almost all the crazy talking points.

Your nastiness and condescension (not to mention your ignorance) only make me more certain that *I* want to be the one who decides when I carry a pregnancy to term. Not the government. Because that's what you're ultimately meaning -- that the government should control when women get pregnant.

Go read http://www.noroc.org/romania.html and learn about the Ceaucescu dictatorship.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

For fuck's sake--don't believe the hype. Sanger was not a eugencist. She briefly flirted with the idea for a short period of time and then backed off rapidly. Sanger was no more racist than anyone else in her time, and she in fact felt compelled to help women of other races empower themselves with contraception. And any single Planned Parenthood has prevented far more abortions than all crisis clinics put together. Every young woman using cheap or free contraception from Planned Parenthood is a young woman who will not be needing an abortion. Think about that before you spout you ignorant rants about the "consequences" of sex. If you honestly worried about babies being killed, you wouldn't be so damn worried about women suffering "consequences" for sex. You'd be taking effective measures like free contraception to keep them from being in that position to begin with.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Sally said...

I'm a little confused about what you're trying to acomplish here, anonymous. Surely you can't be so dim as to think that your "arguments" are actually going to change our minds. If anything, you're helping the pro-choice side. I sometimes get a little uncomfortable when I meet anti-abortion folks who seem like reasonable, decent, compassionate people whom I might otherwise like and respect. You present no such problems. You're like a caricature of an anti-abortion zealot. You're what we like to imagine the other side is like.

So by all means, keep on posting at pro-choice sites. You're helping the pro-choice fight. But since that doesn't seem like something you'd want to do, I'm not sure what you're doing here.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Amerikat said...

Yawn. Can't these anti-abortionists come up with anything new? I'm tired of refuting the same argument over and over again.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Elinor said...

Do you think there's, like, an Anti-Choice Rant Generator somewhere on the web, churning out reams of this stuff? Take your standard insults ("You're just a bunch of..." "You only care about..."), randomly insert the words "Holocaust," "Dred Scott," "slavery," "selfish," "baby," and so on, add some spurious historical references, and presto. No human input required.

Actually, whenever I hear that abortion is like slavery, I get this image of foetuses on their hands and knees scrubbing the floor.

I like how he notes that the purpose of a pregnant woman is to provide a loving home for the foetus...yup, that's her only reason for being.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Sally said...

Sorry, one more thing. I'm not at all an expert on Sanger, but I do study early-20th-century American history, and I know that eugenicists were as likely to oppose birth control as to support it. The most common argument was that racially-superior women were commiting "race suicide" by refusing to have lots of children. They were selfishly limiting their families to two or three kids, so they could improve their standard of living and participate in fun social movements like women's suffrage, while racially inferior women were still having ten or twelve children. The most common solution suggested for this was not to force the racially-inferior folks to use birth control. It was for racially superior women to stop being selfish and realize they should marry young and have a child every year, for the sake of America's racial makeup.

I'd be happy to suggest some stuff for you to read if you want to learn more about this. The whole "race suicide" pro-natalist thing is an interesting little bit of American history.

I understand that you're not interested in the truth. But if you were, you'd have to admit that your arguments resemble eugenicists' in their own way.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Pseudo-Adrienne said...

I like how he notes that the purpose of a pregnant woman is to provide a loving home for the foetus...yup, that's her only reason for being.Well of course that's all women are good for according to anti-choice males. It's ever so convenient to be male and anti-choice. Personally I think the anti-abortion stance of most anti-choice males are about "protecting their property"; in another words, their precious sperm....and keeping women "in their place" by keeping them pregnant.

Or who knows?....Maybe this vehemently and viciously anti-choice "Anonymous" was really Ann Coulter--what with all the sophomoric anti-Liberal diatribes and all. Ann Coulter does hate women and feminists after all. Sorry your bandwidth was wasted Amanda with such inane troll ramblings.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Elinor said...

I'd be happy to suggest some stuff for you to read if you want to learn more about this. The whole "race suicide" pro-natalist thing is an interesting little bit of American history.It's still around, too: for example, this column, which appeared in the Canadian National Post a couple of years ago, and, to my chagrin, was well received by a few of my fellow Canadians.

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Steve Pick said...

Did anybody hear about the Illinois jude who ruled a couple has the right to sue for wrongful death because a fertility clinic accidentally destroyed a frozen embryo? A quote from Cook County Judge Jeffrey Lawrence: "A pre-embryo is a human being . . . whether or not it is implanted in a mother's womb."

Amanda, it looks like things are even worse than you thought.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, this is a DIFFERENT Anonymous. I had to post anonymously because I don't have a blogger account. I got this link from Ampersand's blog.

To the other anonymous: How many fertility clinics have you protested? Do you not realize that fertility clinics destroy thousands of embryos (or children, as you say) every year? Or is that okay because most fertility clinic customers are rich white couples?

Also, where do you buy your clothes, you who values all life? I bet they're made from sweatshop or slave labor. Did you know that the employees who make your clothes are often tortured, and sometimes even murdered? No, I bet you didn't think of that.

For the record, I was raped as a teen and had my baby. I'm still raising him. You'd think the radical right would pat me on the back, but no... they just persecuted me for being young and pregnant. So much for my choice, and so much for you valuing all life. Perhaps you personally don't condemn single mothers, but since you like to generalize about liberals, I thought I'd generalize about conservatives.

And no, other Anonymous, you don't have to feel sorry for me. I'm doing just fine without the help of patronizing conservatives or government assistance. So feel free to go fuck yourself.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When they finally come around to respecting ALL life, I might be willing to listen... How can you claim to have any ground to stand on... when you advocate the disgusting murder of living human beings.Yay! My favorite pro-life argument! I love this one because so many pro-lifers are pro-death penalty as well, yet they don't seem to see the contradiction. I actually used to be pro-death penalty myself until recently; seeing several pro-lifers advocate the death penalty for doctors who performed abortions made me step back and reevaluate. I eventually decided that I couldn't support a postition that was promoted by the same group who openly promoted sexism and hatred, usually under the guise of my own religion.

Supporting the death penalty, to me, stems from the same place -- one of suppressing the rights of those with whom one disagrees -- which is a place I don't want to be. The fact that most of them erroneously use my religion and my savior as their support for oppression just adds to my dislike and disgust for these hypocrites.

2/06/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have a blogger account either, and my approach is to sign my posts at the bottom with my name. Alternatively, if you prefer not to use your real name, come up with a pseudonym.

See what I was saying about the motive of inflicting suffering isn't hidden? It comes out pretty quickly in discussions. Sex not only DOES sometimes have bad consequences, it SHOULD! (according to this particular type of pro-lifer)

BTW, if any pro-lifers are serious about the question of "why not respect ALL life? Why are people allowed to kill fetuses?" former pro-lifer Barry Deutsch has a good post on that matter.

Julian Elson

2/06/2005

 
Blogger Kate Storm said...

Amanda, I just linked to your piece over here at the All Spin Zone. All Your Ovum Are Belong To Us I happened upon a recent court ruling out of Illinois, also about "pre-embryos". It was more than a menopausal woman should have to read in the wee hours of a Monday morning... pre-coffee.

2/07/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I almost disclosed my username from Amp's blog, but I hadn't openly talked about my rape situation on the internet until now. I don't know if I would admit it if people knew who I was (although I'm sure at least one person here figured it out). However, I did NOT post the other anonymous comment that came right after mine.

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Anyway, becoming a mom is what made me pro-choice. I can't put into words what it was like for me to be a pregnant teen at a religious school. I now understand why women choose abortion, and why I don't have the right to judge them. I'm not sorry I had my baby. But if the same thing happened to me again, I might choose an early-term abortion. I don't think I could go through all that AGAIN.

There are some people who think abortion would have been okay for me because I was raped. I disagree with that mentality. Women who choose to have sex are often just as desperate as rape victims when faced with an unintended pregnancy. I don't think the government should be able to decide which women can have abortions and which can't. Besides, sometimes abortion IS a pro-life decision, such as in the case of ectopic pregnancies.

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11/19/2005

 
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11/19/2005

 

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