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Wednesday, December 22, 2004

Is being deliberately childless necessarily a product of fear?

Random question: During the aftermath of the Manson Family murders, did the press focus all its attention on the loss of the innocent fetus that Sharon Tate was carrying to the exclusion of everything else horrible that went down? Yeah, I didn't think so. But I agree with Sheelzlebub that there seems to be a wholesale effort to make fetuses the major victims of crimes against pregnant women. They have a long, hard haul ahead of them, I'm afraid, because while a handful of people are willing to see killing pregnant women as mostly being infanticide, most people have enough human feeling to remember that a human being with a life and memories and fears and feelings was still murdered when someone decides to kill a pregnant woman. No matter how hard the press focused on Laci's pregnancy in the entire Scott Peterson murder trial, in the end you couldn't obscure Laci's humanity, her big smiles as she faced what she thought was a hopeful future. Anyway, that's not the point of this post, though I had to get that out of my system.

Reading the comments at Pinko Feminist Hellcat, I was struck by this comment by Barbara:

For most of my life, I've felt like a bit of a freak because--I simply don't like babies. Don't like 'em. Don't think they're cute. Generally prefer to stay away from them, unless they're attached to a friend of mine.

Yes, I've psychoanalyzed myself and BEEN psychoanalyzed by others. So, I have known for some time that a part of this aversion has to do with fear. Still, it's been difficult to conceptualize the source of this fear. It seems too simplistic to whine something about not wanting to have to wake up at 3am. But I think this story really pulls things together nicely for me. It's about the fear of ceasing to be--literally ceasing to exist as an individual and being completely subsumed by this being--what now before it's even born?

This makes me sad. I know exactly what she means, about being treated like a freak. And the terminology that makes it sound like not wanting to have children is a mental illness, a phobia! If you're a woman, it's not enough not to want children. I've had I cannot tell you how many people wonder what's wrong with me when I've said that I don't want children. Some frantically tell me I need help, but most just patiently say that I'm in a phase that I'll grow out of. And most tell me that my womb itself will force me to change my mind through womb-magic, uh, hormones. Though some of course have implied or said outright that I better change my mind or kiss all chance of getting married away, since that's the only reason men would want to get married. The older I get, though, the less that people tell me I'll change my mind when I get older.

Now, I know that men who don't want children are often told they'll change their mind when they get older, but I've never heard it phrased in psychoanalytical terms. At the most, I've heard men who don't want children get pressured by being told that they may have to lose a good woman if they don't "give" her children. The whole subject of how your decision to have children will affect your romantic future always makes me squirm. While I respect someone's right to have that as a goal in life, I really didn't like feeling like boyfriends were gauging my mommy prospects. It's just not sexy to me, dammit.

There's nothing sick or phobic about not liking to be reduced to a womb. I know people mean well, but that's what it feels like when people wonder what's wrong with you if you don't want kids. How hard is it to understand? Kids are noisy, messy, take up all your free time, and wreck havoc on your social life, and that's all before they become ungrateful teenagers who suck away your money. If you like kids, then that's probably all stuff that doesn't bug you as much as it would bug me, but I am someone who is just a lot more protective of my space and my quiet and my time than most people. I adamantly refuse to accept that makes me mentally ill or anything like that.

359 Comments:

Blogger Anne said...

You make some excellent points. I personally am not eager to have children because my mother's pregnancy with me definitely sent her health downhill, and while she doesn't regret that at all, I am too frightened of the poor health potential I see in myself to embrace the idea of being pregnant.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Anne said...

Oh, I'd add that Sharon Tate's celebrity was probably a factor in people focusing on her rather than the fetus.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

"The whole subject of how your decision to have children will affect your romantic future always makes me squirm."

Don't squirm. It is a major question, that definitely affects romantic relationships. Not to say that every man in the world is going to only want you if you can have kids, but there are some that do.

The decision of whether or not to have children is probably the most important decision in anyone's life. And marrying someone who has made a different decision from yourself is going to create incredible conflict. You don't want any kids, so I would caution not to marry men who do. If you wanted kids, I would caution you not to marry men who don't. It's a big enough issue that the conflict of marrying someone with different goals could destroy a marriage.

I know several couples who have skipped having kids, and they're happy as hell. I know several couples who have bred like rabbits, and they're happy as hell. Whatever your choice, you'll be happiest by finding someone who wants to make the same choice.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

Hey, I said people have a right. But there's nothing wrong with being miffed that someone would dump you if your womb isn't up to par.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger La Lubu said...

Even though I have a child, I know exactly what you're talking about, as I didn't become a mother 'till an extraordinarily advanced age---32. Women in this neck of the woods are expected to have three children by the age of 27, then have their tubes tied. Women who don't conform to this scenario (or a reasonable fascimile) are thought to be lesbian (if they are married or partnered with a man, they are regarded as "closeted" lesbians) child-haters. Sigh.

It's unreal the amount of other people's social/psychological baggage we as women are expected to carry in regards to whether or not we want or have children. And it's another "damned of you do, damned if you don't" scenario. There is just no winning with these people, no matter what end of the spectrum you or they fall on. Ultimately, it's all about control---and how you shouldn't have any over your own life.

There are any number of reasons why people don't have children, all of which are of no concern to the general public. Whatever happened to MYOFB?! Psychoanalyzing the childless goes hand-in-hand with that other favorite pastime, psychoanalyzing mothers.

I do hear what Barbara's saying about fear though; I always had some relative or another foisting a newborn into my arms during family visits, and I was scared as hell. An only child, almost exclusively raised around adults (the only time I had much time with other kids was a school; there was a limited number around the various neighborhoods we lived in), I always thought I'd drop the baby, or inadvertently break it's bones or whatever. I didn't have a clue! So, it only stands to reason as one of life's little humorous asides that I end up being the mother of a medically/physically fragile (at the time) preemie. Then I became "a natural", at a very un-natural sitch.... But I'll never forget the years of harsh judgement by acquaintences and total strangers for my failure to procreate in a timely manner. Just like I'll never forget the instant flip-flop in stereotyping that comes with the status of motherhood. Ain't no winning this one....

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Elle said...

Sing it, sister.

As another commenter said, there are any number of reasons for not wanting to have children/be a parent, and people should just mind their own fucking business.

I think I'm a little older than you, Amanda, and thus can assure you that as you get older, the questions and the prying do diminish. Of course, I also suspect that I'm unusually fortunate in that neither my parents nor my in-laws ever - no, not even once - asked me or The Mister about whether/when we would have children. And our 19th wedding anniversary is this week. (My mom considers that an extraordinarily personal question to ask of anyone. Besides, she knows that if we were having a baby, we'd tell her.)

12/22/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

This is one of my pet peeves as well. Say you don't want kids, and you're immediately tagged a child-hater. My sister pulled this with me when we were discussing sharing a hotel room for our brother's Vegas wedding, and she threw in after I'd agreed that she'd probably have to bring her 1-year-old. When I balked, she accused me of hating my nephews. The reality is, I didn't want to share a hotel room IN LAS VEGAS with a baby who had recently discovered how to remove and throw his poopy diaper. Not exactly the memory I want from Sin City, you know?

I love my nephews, but one of the things I love about them is that I don't have to keep them. I like individual children, just as I like individual adults, but somehow because I have a uterus, I'm supposed to adore all children as pwecious widdle angels or else I'm defective. Please. Nobody expects you to adore all adults.

As for the dating issue, hell yeah you need to bring it up if you expect that the relationship is going anywhere. There's really no way to compromise on the kid issue. Someone's going to wind up capitulating, and that's no good for anyone. And as much as the trope is that men don't want kids, I can tell you that I've run into a hell of a lot more men who want them than men who don't. At least now that I've had my tubes tied, I don't have to sit through the "maybe you'll change your mind" thing anymore.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

There are few weirder feelings that being given the puppy dog eyes--"But *I* want children, don't you?" All at once I feel guilty and repulsed.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I once got a response to my personal ad on Nerve -- the one in which I say up front I don't have or want kids -- from some guy who really, really wanted kids. So much so that his "what I'm looking for" answer was something like, "I want to look into a woman's eyes and see the souls of my future children."

Deleted him right quick.

12/22/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have to agree with zuzu- it seems like every guy wants babies these days. Bleah. Or you get surprised and find out that a guy who didn't care suddenly wants YOUR babies, which is what happened with me and my last ex.

While it's incredibly sucky to be dumped ONLY because you can't have/don't want children, at least you know the guy/girl's priority- they love their imaginary future children better than you, and that's that. It sure as hell beats someone claiming they'd rather have you and no kids and then they assume you'll change your mind because well, you're a girl and why wouldn't you?

I can't deny that being childfree definitely makes your chances of getting married/permacoupled a hell of a lot harder. Unfortunately.

-Jennifer

12/22/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This reminds me of that David Brooks column on natalism. Brooks talks about people who decide to have kids as being somehow uniquely moral. I really don't understand it. Why is having a lot of children a more admiral goal than, say, amassing a lot of money? Or making yourself really beautiful/handsome? Or becoming a whiz at Lie algebras?

Now, if you have kids, then you have a moral obligation to give them as good a life as possible, and the better a life you try to give them, the better. I wish Brooks would tell me why these "natalists" are better than childless folks, though, if he thinks they're so wonderful and self-sacrificing.

Julian Elson

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Linnaeus said...

The pressure isn't nearly as bad on men as it is on women, but as you point out, it does exist. While having children is supposed to be, for women, some kind of fulfillment of their "true" destiny as women, for men it's deemed a signal of their maturity, responsibility, and strength. A man who doesn't want children (like myself) is either a weak, undesireable man who can't land himself a woman, or he's some sort of manipulative libertine who won't grow up and settle down.

I suspect there's quite a few men out there who my overstate their desire for children because they think that women are supposed to want them and therefore, these men fear they won't be considered desireable partners if they say how they really feel. I've seen it happen among acquaintances of mine, and their inclination to lie to themselves and their partners never ended well.

12/22/2004

 
Blogger Catarina - the Swede said...

I'm sort of undecided on the child issue. But I think the parents I know are really bad at advertising the "life with child" thing. You only get to hear about children being ill, children not sleeping, siblings fighting, children not eating, children hitting other kids at day-care etc etc. Really, why should I have any of my own if people who have kids are so jealous at me and SO that we get to hear nothing else than how lucky we are that we can sleep late on Saturdays, don't have to go to soccer practise, don't have to juggle work and children. Life with children don't seem so great to me.

12/23/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

Frankly, Catarina, it's probably because a lot of those parents are terrified if they admit they like being a parent and enjoy having kids, they'll get the eye-rolling "OMFG, she just never shuts up about her crotchfruit" reaction from friends who don't have and/or don't want children. Or be accused of proselytizing and not respecting their choices by subtly hinting everybody should have kids. Whatever.

Linnaeus, I'd guess also that men, not having to bear the children and not having the social role of full-time caretaker expected of them, find the idea of being a parent less onerous than women.

12/23/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

That's an interesting reaction, myth, because as a childless person I find it enjoyable to hear my friends talk about their little ones, as long as that's not the sole topic of conversation. Maybe it's because I'm blessed with friends who keep it to a minimum, or maybe it's because I have made my decision so I don't feel that just talking about your own children is an indictment on me. But I can see how that is a defensive manuever, definitely.

12/23/2004

 
Blogger zuzu said...

This reminds me of that David Brooks column on natalism. Brooks talks about people who decide to have kids as being somehow uniquely moral. I really don't understand it. Why is having a lot of children a more admiral goal than, say, amassing a lot of money?You forget, the natalists only want *white* couples to have lots of babies. For shits 'n' giggles, do a google search of "Jim Bob Duggar" or "Quiver Full" and see what you come up with. Be warned: Stormfront has a lot of discussion about this.

12/23/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I wish Brooks would tell me why these "natalists" are better than childless folks, though, if he thinks they're so wonderful and self-sacrificing."

Well now that women have a real choice, I think women who chose to have children today COULD be self-sacrificing or perhaps incredibly naive. After all women don't have to bear children today as we have plenty of effective birth control methods and women can still have a good life based upon their own economic contribution without marrying. Years ago women HAD to be married to have even half a life but their contribution to that life was producing children.

It's that simple...

Pregnancy and childbirth are a painful, complicated and 'bloody' process without much long-term reward in it after the fact...so many young women's reaction today IS going to be "why bother"...especially with a society fixiated on youth and beauty (and no matter what they tell you bearing children DOES age women) 50% divorce rate and these long on-going custody fights that sometimes last for years becoming more common.

Couple the physical and emotional agony with the economic hit most women are going to take as statistics now show that almost the entire disparity in men and womens' income is related to the years that a woman takes out of the workforce to have children and what's the incentive for young women to have kids anymore?

Unless there is some latent maternal instinct still operating in women, I can easily see a childless future, by choice...which, of course, speaks to the long-term future of humanity since if everytime a society gives women a choice, her choice becomes no...where are we heading with this?

12/23/2004

 
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12/23/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have children. I'm totally okay with it. I adore children. I love seeing how their little minds make these amazing leaps. I have friends with children, and friends without. I am perfectly happy to pay taxes for school bond issues. I used to be a child.

There's no sensible reason *at all* to have a child...except for this one: *you really, really, really want to*.

It's not weird that some women don't want to have children. I'm sure that it's nothing new, either. We didn't suddenly get so effete and selfish and spoiled that we're saying, "Oh, no! Too much trouble, and ewww! The stretch marks!" It's just that historically, women have simply borne children anyway.

It takes a special confluence of events - birth control technology, more accessible divorce procedures, the possibility of financial independence - to support a real choice. Before? You could join a convent. (Even then, you were the bride of Christ.)

It's about ownership and property rights. Women are perceived to comprise two parcels: our own physical selves, and the contents (potential or actual) of our wombs. Now, I don't happen to think of myself as a two-parceled entity, but boy, is the heat getting turned up.

It's creepy to realize that for a lot of people, my violent death wouldn't be worth the same retribution as the violent death of a pregnant woman. It makes me want to map out my net worth as a human, including variables like fertility. Does the penalty for killing me plummet when I hit menopause? Does my killer get a lighter sentence if I can be proved to have been "willfully childless"?

Trying to get myself back on topic....

Fear and child-bearing. Well, like the blues song says, "Honey, if you ain't scared, you ain't right."

larkspur

12/23/2004

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

I can't understand the desire to have a child. And this is the sort of thing that really upsets me: not that I don't want to have children, but that I cannot empathize with the desire to have children. Am I somehow so emotionally screwed up that I can't feel a fundamental human desire? Or, am I surrounded by people who are brainwashed into desiring something horrible?

Having a child, to me, has always seemed like one of the worst things that could happen to a person. It's like being beaten up daily for nine months, then forced into slavery for the rest of your life.

I don't like children, either. If you're lucky, by their teens they start to be capable of actual thought, and of feeling genuine empathy and compassion for others. Up to that point, children seem to be selfish, sadistic little monsters. That feeling, though, I can blame on my life experiences. It's the desire to have children, or the lack of that desire, I can't understand or explain.

A few years ago, I was having lunch with some friends of mine, fellow socialists, after some political event. I can't remember how it came up, but I remember saying that my impression was that most women who married, did so because they'd just found out they were pregnant, and given the social pressures, decided they'd better make their current relationship permanent. The one other man at the table said that it was a horrible thing to say -- then the other five people, all women, all started to agree with me.

A few months after that, my sister announced she was getting married. As it turned out, she was pregnant, and marrying the guy she was living with. She had told me, many times, that she never wanted to have children. She now has three, and her entire life seems reduced to being a model housewife. It frightens me.

12/23/2004

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I wouldn't say that's horrible, really. Most people love the person they're with and aren't holding out for their soulmate or anything. And if they get pregnant, they see it as a way of forcing their hand. I wouldn't say it's a male/female thing really. As I've said before, plenty of women see an accidental pregnancy as cause to abort or go on as single mothers and are surprised when the boyfriend proposes marriage instead.

12/23/2004

 
Blogger mythago said...

Amanda, I know for a fact that there *are* plenty of people who talk about their kids tiresomely (much like the newly-in-love friend who can't shut up about her new boyfriend--we're all happy for her, but it's tedious when you can't go thirty seconds without her somehow dragging Boyfriend into the conversation). So for some people, it is indeed defensive.

But I'd guess that's more common when the childfree person is the lone Bohemian in a sea of suburbanites. When it's the other way around, you get that defensiveness compounded with the usual sexism writ large: running a household and raising a child, being Women's Work, are beneath contempt, and certainly a cool, hip modern women doesn't find them as interesting or conversation worthy as...say...rhapsodizing about a new C++ subroutine.

12/23/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hell yeah...
also the presumption of relatives and friends who keep worn clothes and artifacts "for when you have children". I have a womb, therefore I must have an overwhelming compulsion to use it. Go figure.

12/24/2004

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You all are a breath of fresh air for me! I have known since I was a child myself that I did not want to be a mother, did not want to have children, and like Amanda said I too am not reduced to goo at the site of an infant. I'm an independent thinker, and active woman of 34 with so much to offer the world, that it appauls me how often I'm regarded like you all said as a child hater, a selfish person, a freak, or less than a woman all because I know what I do and do not want and have the balls to put down social pressure to take a path other than my chosen one. I value my freedom and independence above all else, and I feel to have children I would have to be willing to compromise it, and I am not willing simply put. A person who has children for the wrong reasons is not by any means doing that child a favor nor society a favor in my eyes, no wonder we have so many social problems and self esteem problems these days! I have never felt a need to explain myself or justify my choices, although I admit it would have been easier at times in dealing with other's reactions. I think it's the jealousy of a society that feels threatened by a woman's ultimate independece and empowerment that drives the negativity we encounter for our choice to be childless, not many people have the courage to pursue their own dreams I guess. I'm glad I came upon this blog, and I support all of the like minded independent women like myself... in a modern cliche... you go girls!
Rhonda

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