It's not just child-care, it's husband-care
Echidne is doing a wonderful job refuting the argument that women aren't in the hard sciences 'cause we're dumb and wuv the babies too much to get into math. Anyway, she discusses how time issues are an impediment to women joining the ranks, as they are for men.
Second, why would women react differently to a long workweek than men? This is the hidden agenda in this suggestion: it has to do with who is going to take care of the children. So it's very simple, really: according to this hypothesis, women are not in the hard sciences because they need to have more time for family life. Men appear not to want to have a family life to the same extent. Why would this be the case? Here, once again, opinions differ. Some argue that women have a biological imperative to spend more time chauffeuring their children to hockey meets than men do. Others argue that the upbringing we are all subjected to convinces both girls and boys of the necessity for such tasks to belong to women. Or perhaps both of these reasons apply at the same time....
Talking about the "eighty-hour week" is a shorthand way of pointing out that so many things in the academia assume that the scholars have a well-equipped home base to which they return only to sleep. The scholars are certainly not expected to give birth to children, for example, though change in this has taken place in the last few decades. But hard sciences may not look like very hospitable places to a lot of women for reasons of this sort.
I think it's true that women have less time than men, as a general rule. But it's not just because women take on the lion's share of child-rearing. Lots of women who are always really pinched for time don't have small children to raise, so they should have as much free time as men. But, speaking anecdotally of course, it seems to me that this just isn't the case. A good number of childless women and women whose children are grown that I know are still run ragged. And for the reason that Echidne touches on in the 2nd paragraph I quote from her. That would be the well-equipped home base for the working man.
Caring for the working man is still the job of women. Housework, shopping, laundry, and dinner still fall primarily for women to do. After all, a working man should have a nice home to come home to relax to. And he should, he really should. But unfortunately, the women who do so much of this work usually hold down full-time jobs themselves.
It's my personal theory that many women still do the "second shift" mostly by themselves in large part due to the wage gap. I know that I have many guilt pangs about the fact that my boyfriend pays more into the bills than I do because he makes more than I do. Practically speaking, it's the best way for us to do things. Emotionally speaking, it makes it really hard for me to ask him to do the shopping once in awhile. I feel like I can compensate for what I don't make at work by working extra hours at home. Luckily, he doesn't take advantage of this muddle of feelings, so I do manage to squeeze in plenty of free time. But I'm guessing that lots of people, especially those who are raised believing in "women's work" and "men's work" are perfectly fine having women compensate for making 25% less by working 40% harder.
Whether people think it through that hard or not, I know lots and lots of couples who live with the notion that a woman should take care of her man's needs, and if that means she has no downtime because she has a fulltime job herself, well that's too bad. And of course, if challenged, the genetic, traditional and/or Biblical arguments will come out. Women's work and men's work and all that. If women's work is harder, then that's too bad. Take it up with god and/or nature.
I have no trouble believing that some women are simply worn out by life and can't get ahead because of it. For lots of women I know, their only options to lighten their load are to ask their husbands to take on more housework or just cut back on the amount of housework that is done. And neither seems like a real option, since to take #1 is to be a nag and to take #2 is to be a slob. Very unfeminine. God knows I watched my mother struggle with this conundrum my entire childhood.
posted by Amanda Marcotte at
19.1.05
56 Comments:
I just wanted to comment on this because as a woman currenty persuing my masters in math that this can't be the only reason. I went from an undergrad program with about 40% females to my masters which is less than 10%. As most people in my situation are single and without children, the decision to not persure further degrees in math must be due to other factors. Though that said after this program it might start to be a larger factor as people start marrying or having children.
Thanks
1/19/2005
Anon, you have a point, and there is a lot more going on in the way that girls are educated early. But part of that is that we are brought up from early childhood to be careful not to overcommit to our careers because there is the chance that we may have to give up all that hard work in order to take care of a man. I know that when I was growing up, my parents, my stepdad in particular, was always warning me about this activity or that by saying, "How is that going to look when you're old enough to start dating?" Granted, he never explicitly said that my studies would get in the way of my dating life, but he did imply that my introversion, which is a good personality trait for someone who is a big reader and probably a good trait for a scientist, would hurt my future.
Zuzu, I see your point. It's frustrating, but the fact is that men can make choices. Not to puff him up or anything, but this Christmas, I wandered into the kitchen post-dinner to find my boyfriend drying dishes with my mom, my aunt and my grandmother, just chatting away. I picked up a dishtowel and joined in, but damn him for guilting me into it. The thing that really made me happy was how natural it felt. No subtle demands that we act like he's a prince amongst men for being a good houseguest.
1/19/2005
zuzu said: "The idea of living with a man gets less and less appealing all the time."
I agree one-hundred percent. I will never live with a man who expects me to be 'Miss Stepford', and do nothing but cook, clean, and fuck him on demand. I still can't believe that there are men in this day and age who believe that those are solely 'women's duties'.
That Summers asshole of Harvard is just pushing more social gender stereotypes down people's throats. Worst of all, down the throats of his own female students, whom I'm sure are trying to prove all of those old stereotypes about women in math and science to be wrong. Perhaps he's just intimidated by the idea of women in math and science and not in the kitchen.
Newsflash boys; NOT all women want to be "domestic-goddesses" and NOT all women give a rat's ass about being making you a nice hot meal every night. Neither are all women obsessed about mommies. Some of us don't buy into the "women are too emotionally hysterical and irrational to succeed in math and science, or even have a career, and thus all women really want to be mommies instead because it's easier" stereotypical bullshit.
Summers and antifeminist men and women who share his views enjoy beating down women whenever we make an accomplishment in a previously male-dominated field. And they always use pseudo-science and bias sociobiological bullshit to do it.
1/19/2005
Slightly OT, but the comment about lack of time is a really good one. It's a huge cause of problems between people. There's the fact that people need to work more hours, but long commutes are increasingly a problem too...I used to have a two-hour commute (four hours total per day). It's devastating in ways that you don't always think about at the time. Never again!
Anyway, around my place we sort of negotiate who does what on a given day based on who's more wiped out...which means that about half the time, BOTH of us are too exhausted to cook or clean. The GOP talks about saving marriage, but the amount of time and effort it takes to get by in this country has destroyed far more marriages than any number of gays could.
1/19/2005
As I understand it, in the marxist account of the basis of sexism, the prescribed family model requires women to do most of the necessary labor to reproduce labor power, without the bourgeois having to pay for any of it. The trick is that women are made to feel obligated to do it without thought of any reward.
Equalizing tasks between men and women is necessary, but not sufficient, to end this problem.
1/20/2005
Just for one other twist on this - figuring out "who does what" in a relationship can be tricky even when you *don't* have to deal with the expectations of male/female gender roles.
My partner and I are both women and have struggled with this on and off for years. There have been times in our relationship when I worried that I was behaving like some sort of stereotypical male chauvinist when we argued about this!
I have always made more money than her and also worked longer hours, so I frequently did find myself expecting that she would pick up more of the slack at home. Basically resolving this seems to require constant negotiation. There are a few jobs that seem to stick with one person - she makes breakfast in the mornings, I always scoop the cat box (which is ironic since it wasn't my idea to get a cat, but that's a different story...)
The bottom line is that housework sucks - I've never met anyone who LIKES doing it. Finding some way to get it done when no one in the house really wants to can be a challenge - regardless of the genders involved.
1/20/2005
I think cooking is fun. Gardening can be fun too, IMHO (though not mowing the lawn.). The rest of housework (the cleaning, making beds, etc), though, sucks as SaraS says.
An issue I wonder about is cases in which there are genuine differences on how clean is necessary. I generally agree with the principle that couples should share housework equally -- if they agree on a common amount of housework. But what if he is fine with unmade beds and she isn't? Note that this isn't "he claims to be fine with it because he knows she'll make them, saving him the effort," but rather even if he were living alone, he wouldn't make his own bed.
I proposed a system for solving this problem to my mother: housework should be divided equally up to the point where the house is cleaned the the standards of the slobbier partner, then the remaining housework is done solely by the neater partner. Or, there are more than two people, say three, all three do the housework needed to get the house up to the level of the slobbiest person equally, then the two neater people do the housework necessary to get it up to the level of the middle person, and then the neatest person handles the remaining increment alone. So, if 9 hours of housework attain the neatness level of the slobbiest person, 15 hours attain the neatness level of the middle person, and 20 hours attain the neatness level of the neatest person, then the slob should do 3 (9/3) hours, the middle person should do 6 (9/3 + (15 - 9)/2) hours, and the neatest person should do 11 (9/3 + (15 - 9)/2 + (20 - 15)) hours.
Being the neat person of my house, who's always telling us, "why can't you just look around the house and see what needs to be done and DO IT?!!" my mother disagreed with this. I think she believes that the neatness standard attained should be set by the neatest person in the house, then the housework divided equally from there. This violates my (self-interest influenced) views of fairness, however. :^)
Julian Elson
1/20/2005
I'm glad Julian brought that up.
My experience has been that, in shared living situations, the neatest person inevitably does most of the household work, and ends up resenting it. If it's a mixed gender household, it's usually (but definitely not always) a woman who is most concerned with neatness, and ends up doing most of the work. (I've been the neatfreak and the slob in different situations.)
To make matters worse: if one person things the house needs to be vacuumed daily, another weekly, and a third person monthly, #2 and #3 are never going to actually vacuum, because #1 did it already.
It's hard to get around the fact that the slob benefits from frequent housecleaning done by someone else, even though the slob would be satisfied if the housecleaning wasn't as frequent.
I'm not sure what the remedy is for the problem. But I do suspect that many people, women especially, are socialized to expect more cleanliness than is really necessary.
1/20/2005
I had a woman who was an electrician come to my domestic violence group(I work at a shelter)to talk about non-traditional work. She made good money($40/hr) was in a union, worked long hours at times/like 60 or 80, other times was laid off for a month.
The women asked her what was the hardest thing about her job, she thought for awhile and then surprised us by aswering "not having a girlfriend or a wife".
She said when they worked long days the guys all had the women in their life doing their laundry, cleaning their houses, scheduling their appts., taking care of their kids, cooking them food etc. After a 10 or 12 hour workday noone at home expected the men to do anything but eat and park in front of the TV with a beer.
She had a boyfriend and kids, boyfriend was not a live-in boyfriend. She said alot of the guys were in her same situation only their ex had the kids and their girlfriend came over and cleaned their house etc. She was really envious of this advantage they had.
1/20/2005
True story - Two weekends ago, I was cleaning the shower naked. I save it for last so I won't get soaked rinsing the tile & I can shower right afterward. My bethrothed had to call a couple of friends and tell them about her nekkid BF cleaning the bathroom.
I'd love it if my GF made 100K+ a year. I'd quit my job & take care of the house if that was the case. Trouble is neither wants to have to work that hard week after week.
I'm neater than her. Unlike her, I can't stand dirty floors and unmade beds. She has much higher standards for food & likes to cook. I will eat anything just to refuel if left on my own. So I do most cleaning, she does most cooking & shopping; we split the laundry. It helps to keep the resentment down knowing the other does things too. We are both better off for having the other in our lives.
1/20/2005
I've had this argument with my mom (who thinks she is neat. She is not.) a billion times: that if I REALLY REALLY LOVED HER, I'd clean to her standards to prove my love. I in turn try to explain to her that if I don't badly care on my own whether or not every single smudge is gone, it still won't be cleaned up to her standards. Honestly, if one person cares so much more that things be as neat as they want them, then they're gonna have to do it themselves. Period. It doesn't work to harass and harangue others into doing it your way, because they won't succeed at it. If that means that Mr/Ms. Neatnik does a lot more cleaning than the slobs, then so be it. The Neatnik's the one who wanted it that clean in the first place.
I am so incredibly glad I haven't shacked up with any of my SO's. I hope I never get stupid enough to do it, because they'd probably kill my slobby ass.
1/20/2005
I don't agree that the neatnik should just get stuck with all the cleaning to the neatnik's standards (and I've been the slob). For one thing, as has been pointed out, this means that the slob doesn't even have to do the work of cleaning to the slob's standards, because the neatnik has always done everything before it gets dirty enough for the slob to clean it.
On the other hand, "if you cared enough you'd just know what needs cleaning and do it" doesn't work. The slob won't see dirt the way the neatnik does, and, really, who can be blamed for not reading someone else's mind?
What makes more sense is to talk together about what work you think needs to be done, and how often. Then you can either: A) Give the slob some tasks that the slob actually cares about, where the slob's standards are actually higher than, the same as, or maybe even just somewhat close to, what the neatnik's standards are. Then the neatnik should leave those tasks to the slob, stay out of them, not insist on redoing the slob's work. Or else: B) Agree explicitly that certain specific tasks (say, vacuuming, or scrubbing the toilet) should be done at a certain specified frequency (maybe the neatnik's preferred frequency, or maybe just a compromise between what the neatnik would want and what the slob would want), and that the slob will take on certain of these tasks. And, again, as long as the slob actually does the tasks at the desired frequency, the neatnik doesn't jump in and redo the slob's work. Or perhaps the slob and the neatnik could trade off on the tasks (then at least sometimes each area actually gets cleaned to the neatnik's standards, and sometimes it doesn't, but the neatnik has the satisfaction of not being the one doing the work).
Or maybe there's some other approach that I haven't thought of. But, to be fair to the neatnik, it has to not involve the neatnik just doing all the work, and to be fair to the slob, it has to not involve expecting the slob to actually see dirt the same way the neatnik does.
Lynn Gazis-Sax
1/21/2005
Well, you always do what we do around my house, which is leave long lists of chores already done today by the list-maker behind, so the list-reader feels compelled to complete more tasks. Healthy competition, that's all.
1/21/2005
A few months after my husband proposed, I FREAKED OUT. I told him I didn't want to live the same empty life as our parents. Both our mothers had jobs (not really careers) and they still had to cook and clean and manage the household. I told him I WOULD NOT live like that. He agreed to anything - as long as I would marry him. So in love. He didn't have any expectations. We worked it out. The key is communicating your needs up front.
It turned out I was right. I always thought I would work and I have a good career (though not necessarily at the current job). He hated his job but loved doing his freelance graphic artist work. When the babies came, he quit his full-time job to be with the kids and do the freelance thing. He does not parent or manage the house the way I would, but he does it his way. That works too. (BTW, he was raised by a feminist mom and 3 older sisters.)
As far as the money goes, I think it depends on how the household finances work. When people are married, the whole thing usually goes into the same account. The decisions should be based on the higher good of the family, not on what each member produces. If an unmarried couple has the same agreement, then each member should have an equal say, regardless of salary, as long as the best interests of the family are served. If you're together, you should work as a team.
I have no idea how it works when people live together and split expenses. I am not trying to be old-fashioned. I didn't live with my husband because we were in college before we got married. I would not join finances with someone unless it was a long term sure thing. I work too hard. I'll give you my heart but don't ask me for money. ;)
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I hear you Saph, but for some people, it's just unfeasible to keep separate expenses and maintain their standard of living.
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