Mouse rant blog vent mouse.

Wednesday, February 16, 2005

Onto the mundane

Life is in the details here at Mouse Words. And after spending a couple days reading all the sturm und drang at Alas over the presence of men in the feminist movement, I'm ready to talk about silly shit. Which, weirdly enough, worms its way over to me from Hugo's blog. (I refuse to talk about how these are both male-run blogs. Well, unless you really want to start shit, which people are always welcome to do at my blog, knowing full well I never ask my commenters to be civil. Rip some shit, people. Seriously. I'm bored.)

Anyway, in the entire discussion about deconstructing male and female roles, it sort of drifted over to the one expectation that weighs heavily on men in the ever-fascinating courting process of actually initiating contact. This is actually a somewhat new expectation, relatively speaking. In the past, introducing yourself to someone was pretty much rude across the board. In our modern life, it's pretty much expected that you have to do this sometimes, lest no one gets laid ever, and the burden has fallen to men. (Don't even start to whine. You may think that it's a huge burden to work up the courage to speak to a woman, but that's like a 10 minute ordeal. Shaving, doing hair, picking out clothes, and doing make-up to make you someone want to work up the courage is a hell of a bigger time issue. And it's a bigger leap of faith.)

It's as obvious as a beehive hairdo that under the New Feminist Milieu that working up the courage to approach someone should be an equal opportunity thing. However, many heterosexual feminists like myself find that we still manage rarely, if ever, to approach men. It's not an ill will issue; it's a logic issue. Lynn Gazis-Sax puts it perfectly.

I have to confess, I didn't do a lot of initiating in my single days, even though I do and did believe, as a feminist, that that role should be shared. The reason is, when I know that all the guys expect to be initiating, it's hard for me not to assume that the reason a guy hasn't approached me yet is that he just isn't interested in me anyway, and so why bother?

She's got it. I have always felt guilty about my indifference to pursuing men with the dogged determination I have been on the receiving end of in my time. Not that this is a constant problem or anything, but even one guy pursuing me is 100% better than the nothing from my side. See, it's all relative.

It's a weird sort of feminist guilt to look back and realize that I let men initiate pretty much all dates, relationships, whatever. I mean, on an individual level, each one is not really a big deal. My current boyfriend and I met because I bitched out some dick who was hassling some random girls I was standing beside and myself at a show. Those girls turned out to be friends of my boyfriend's and so they pushed him into asking me out. As shit just sort of happens like that, it's hard to really frame it terms of 50/50 or anything like that. But looking at my whole romantic history, it becomes clear that I never really directly approached a man pretty much ever.

And it's like Lynn says, it's because the gender assumptions create these sort of hard to break patterns that have a logical intergrity. Men are trained to take the risk, so if a man doesn't take the risk, you can assume that he doesn't like you. (On the other side of it, if a woman glares at you and looks away, men know to give up. Or they should.) It's pretty frustrating, because this little trick of logic has created this odd pattern where men and women become more and more equal all the time in negotiating their relationships, dicussing their sexual needs, the whole bit. And yet getting the ball rolling is still pretty much left up to men.

I'm in a steady relationship now that has the sort of inertia anyone with a good grip on reality delights in, but I know that if I were single, I'd probably fall back into my old habits. Again, it just makes sense. If you like a guy and he's ignoring you, odds are he doesn't like you so why waste your time? I see how it plays out and it frustrates me, but I don't see a good way out of it. You can't teach guys to be more reticient--that's not fair to them. But teaching girls to be forward has only limited use, and efforts in that direction will be dashed on the first guy that strings them along and they take solace in books with obnoxiously long titles about how guys are just not going to be into a sort like you, and everything goes to shit.

It's just kind of odd to me that in so many other ways, men and women are actually making progress towards egalitarian relationships, but this is just a sticking point that seems pretty hard to unstick.

324 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a lot of guys--especially nice guys (no, I mean the actual nice guys, not the whiners that were discussed a few days ago)--really don't want to approach women for worry of coming off as too aggressive. Or, they're just scared and nervous the same way we (women) are.

Because, I think guys today do get at least some messages that women will approach them if they're interested, so if we don't they think we're not interested.

When I was single, I almost always initiated things. Now, this meant a lot of embarassing rejections (and a bunch of meaningless sex) by the end of it, but it also meant some amazing experiences that I wouldn't have had if I'd waited for the guy to approach me. Including my partner of 9 years, actually, who was given my number by a mutual friend who thought we'd get along, but hewas too chicken to call me. So I called him. Good thing, too. :)

--PurrpleGrrl

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a lot of guys--especially nice guys (no, I mean the actual nice guys, not the whiners that were discussed a few days ago)--really don't want to approach women for worry of coming off as too aggressive. Or, they're just scared and nervous the same way we (women) are.

Because, I think guys today do get at least some messages that women will approach them if they're interested, so if we don't they think we're not interested.

When I was single, I almost always initiated things. Now, this meant a lot of embarassing rejections (and a bunch of meaningless sex) by the end of it, but it also meant some amazing experiences that I wouldn't have had if I'd waited for the guy to approach me. Including my partner of 9 years, actually, who was given my number by a mutual friend who thought we'd get along, but hewas too chicken to call me. So I called him. Good thing, too. :)

--PurrpleGrrl

2/17/2005

 
Blogger heydt said...

One of the difficulties I have in posting on Hugo's blog (except in regard to porn, evidently) is that many of the MRA's post there, and one common depiction of feminist (or pro-feminist, if you prefer) men are whipped, or subservient... not real men.

Uh, that's me. Im pretty durn submissive. Women have almost always initiated any kind of romantic contact with me; the very few times that I did initiate things I either was unaware of having done so, inebriated, or a complete failure at it. Or some horrible combination of all of the above.

Fortunately, the women I'm attracted to are fairly direct and dominant people (surprise) who have taught themselves to ignore or mitigate the social programming that tells them not to initiate, so I've done ok.

But I do recognize that even the most agressive women are still subject to that kind of indoctrination, and that nobody, agressive or not, wants to hit on someone who shows no interest in them.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to comment on the part of the OP where Amanda says "Men are trained to take the risk." As a man, I can definitively say that I was never "trained" to ask women out. I doubt many (if any) men are. I, and most men I know, made it up as we went along. We cribbed stuff from books or movies or television, or in a pinch other guys. This is not training. I think the quote by Gazis-Sax reveals the same kind of misconception, specifically this bit: "...when I know that all the guys expect to be initiating..." All the guys?

Let's change that last quote a bit: "...all the guys are expected to initiate...." That's more like it. I'm sure some guys much prefer to initiate. I'm also sure some guys don't. But even those like me who aren't comfortable with initiating dates et al. have to suck it up and try anyway. Because we want dates, and many of the women we want dates with are just sitting there, wanting us too, waiting for us to work up the courage.

This serves no one. And while I don't deny that shaving, picking out clothes, etc. is a greater time commitment than working up one's nerve, I challenge the contention that it's a bigger leap of faith.

Chris

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From high school onward I (a woman) always made it a point to ask guys out if I was interested. It was a matter of principle for me and I forced myself to do it, even though the prospect of rejection and embarassment was really nerve-wracking. I am glad I took those risks because even though there was some rejection, I did have some amazing dates and one 3-year relationship because I took the initiative.

But I was never as persistent with men I was interested in than men tend to be with women. I would generally ask a guy out on one date with a particular date or time. If he wanted to say no, he could make up an excuse and no one had to be embarassed. If he was interested in me but couldn't make the particular date or time I mentioned, I figured he would reciprocate by asking me out some other time.

The problem is that men often feel they have to be overly persistent because they don't know if the woman is really saying no or just playing "hard to get." In a way, initiating is a lot easier for women because we can expect men to reciprocate if they are really interested. On the other hand, because it is so uncommon for a woman to initiate, some men will assume that the woman who does is some sort of love-crazed psycho like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction."

CMC

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Stentor said...

If you like a guy and he's ignoring you, odds are he doesn't like you so why waste your time?A waste of a mere 10 minutes, as you describe it to guys who whine about having to initiate. Balanced against the substantial probability that he's a bit shy or hasn't noticed you, it seems like the logic you and Gazis-Sax describe doesn't quite add up. Maybe thinking about it this way would be helpful to single women (and by extension to less assertive guys).

Two out of my three relationships have been initiated by women (and there was another time a woman approached me and in retrospect I should have accepted).

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Omar said...

CMC: On the other hand, because it is so uncommon for a woman to initiate, some men will assume that the woman who does is some sort of love-crazed psycho like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction."Not just for that, I would hope. People have said this before, but it bears repeating: if a guy looks down on you for making his fucking life easier, you may not want to date him.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Ron said...

I completely disagree with you this one. Never having asked a man out, you don't have the experience to judge the stress involved. It's not about the time. On a side note, you dress up because you like to dress up. It's not the same thing.

I'll bet you are an outgoing, talk-to-anyone kind of person. Good for you. Many people are not, so it is a completely false assumption that if a man doesn't talk to you, he's not interested. I did it all the time. Maybe if I hadn't missed all the risk training men get, it's be different. I must have had a cold that day.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Timothy said...

Don't even start to whine. You may think that it's a huge burden to work up the courage to speak to a woman, but that's like a 10 minute ordeal.Except during the period I was looking for dates, I had undiagnosed (and therefor untreated) Attention Deficit Disorder, Inatentive Type. This meant:
1. Getting the intiative to do ANYTHING was an ordeal. Literally. I hate facial hair, but I usually did not shave because it just took too much damn effort to start. And the more nerve-wracking a tack, the greater the ordeal
2. I usually missed social cues obvious to everyone else. Worse, I was smart enough to be quite aware that I missed social cues obvious to everyone else, meant that asking out someone involved wading into a high-risk social situation knowing that I was a social idiot.
Don't assume you know what a guy "means" by not asking you out.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Decnavda said...

Don't even start to whine. You may think that it's a huge burden to work up the courage to speak to a woman, but that's like a 10 minute ordeal.Except during the period I was looking for dates, I had undiagnosed (and therefor untreated) Attention Deficit Disorder, Inatentive Type. This meant:
1. Getting the intiative to do ANYTHING was an ordeal. Literally. I hate facial hair, but I usually did not shave because it just took too much damn effort to start. And the more nerve-wracking a tack, the greater the ordeal
2. I usually missed social cues obvious to everyone else. Worse, I was smart enough to be quite aware that I missed social cues obvious to everyone else, meant that asking out someone involved wading into a high-risk social situation knowing that I was a social idiot.
Don't assume you know what a guy "means" by not asking you out.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Decnavda said...

Don't even start to whine. You may think that it's a huge burden to work up the courage to speak to a woman, but that's like a 10 minute ordeal.Except during the period I was looking for dates, I had undiagnosed (and therefor untreated) Attention Deficit Disorder, Inatentive Type. This meant:
1. Getting the intiative to do ANYTHING was an ordeal. Literally. I hate facial hair, but I usually did not shave because it just took too much damn effort to start. And the more nerve-wracking a tack, the greater the ordeal
2. I usually missed social cues obvious to everyone else. Worse, I was smart enough to be quite aware that I missed social cues obvious to everyone else, meant that asking out someone involved wading into a high-risk social situation knowing that I was a social idiot.
Don't assume you know what a guy "means" by not asking you out.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Timothy said...

Don't even start to whine. You may think that it's a huge burden to work up the courage to speak to a woman, but that's like a 10 minute ordeal.Except during the period I was looking for dates, I had undiagnosed (and therefor untreated) Attention Deficit Disorder, Inatentive Type. This meant:
1. Getting the intiative to do ANYTHING was an ordeal. Literally. I hate facial hair, but I usually did not shave because it just took too much damn effort to start. And the more nerve-wracking a tack, the greater the ordeal
2. I usually missed social cues obvious to everyone else. Worse, I was smart enough to be quite aware that I missed social cues obvious to everyone else, meant that asking out someone involved wading into a high-risk social situation knowing that I was a social idiot.
Don't assume you know what a guy "means" by not asking you out.

2/17/2005

 
Anonymous Decnavda said...

Jesus, sorry about the multiple posts, but I didn't notice the message above that my comment was accepted. I hope my Straterra is not wearing off...

2/17/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

I never dated in high school, and only did a little in college. Trying to approach women was nightmarish. I had no idea how to go about it, and I always had the nagging feeling that I came off as an utter creep. Most likely, I was approaching women who simply weren't interested in me and wouldn't have been in any circumstances.

In later years, the impression I've gotten from most women who were friends were that their biggest complaints about men were:

1. Men hitting on them all the time.
2. Men hitting on them all the time.
3. Men hitting on their friends.
4. Men hitting on them all the time.

So, I'm left thinking I'm better off just not starting anything at all, on the theory that sooner or later, some woman I'm a friend to will let me know she's interested in me. (And I won't miss it until I realize it a week too late. I can be pretty dense.)

At this point, I've got enough friends who have pretty healthy, enduring relationships, so they should provide better models. The difficulty is, I don't see what happens when a relationship transforms into a romantic one. My impression is that, usually, it's the woman (in a heterosexual couple) that initiates that.

Strangely, when I ask people about this sort of thing, even the most bohemian sort suddenly start talking in a Hallmark Moment fashion, and I know it's not really describing accurately what happened.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger ScottM said...

Brian wrote:"In later years, the impression I've gotten from most women who were friends were that their biggest complaints about men were: 1. Men hitting on them all the time..."This is the big one. Guys who listen to women hear this and it functions as both a specific brush off, but also as a general indictment and a deterrent to asking out others. There are guys who don't listen at all, hit on everything that breathes, and so on, but they're beyond this whole discussion.

Despite my general reluctance, I've initiated all of the (very few) times I've arranged a date. I would have appreciated being asked out (certainly flattered, if nothing else), but the roles are a little stuck. So Amanda, feel free to initiate-- as the comments above indicate, there are a lot of guys who aren't into asking people out... and being asked out would certainly tip a borderline case anyway.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Linnaeus said...

I can second Brian's sentiments here. I didn't date much in my teens and early 20s, which was mostly due to my lack of confidence...something that's taken a long time to rectify.

But me and my friends also had the additional filter of what we observed in most social situations in which men and women meet. And it really felt like we'd get conflicting signals. On one hand, be confident, because that lets her know you're interested. On the other hand, you never know if you're going to run into one of those women who is tired of getting hit on all the time.

I think it also took me (and a few of my friends) time to understand that women get nervous about these things too. We were convinced for a long time that women had nothing to worry about because it just seemed easier for them to attract men than the other way around.

I'm not saying any of this is accurate, by the way, just that I had a tendency to interpret the dating world in this manner.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger echidne said...

Asking people out leaves one open to rejection. It's hard to get over that stage of fear. Still, I have asked people out whenever I have felt like it and most of them have been at least flattered.

I have also been asked out by people that I wouldn't have otherwise considered and sometimes I have found them interesting.

There is a middle way of doing this which is less painful, like going out in small groups or doing something as friends first. I prefer that, especially as one is never sure about how strong the interest might be. On either side.

My brother used to get drunk and then ask all the best looking women out and then they'd say no. It took him some time to get over that stage, and I think that it taught him something useful. I'm not sure what the significance of this comment is; probably not to get drunk before you make the call.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

This has been a real eye-opening thread for me. I didn't mean to make it sound like men's load is light or anything--that was pretty much a dry joke about leg-shaving. I do think it would be better all around if things could even out a little.

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Emma Goldman said...

For you guys, there IS a difference between being asked out and being hit on all the time. the latter is done respectfully, with room for polite refusal, and possibly even some ambiguity about the "ultimate" intentions of the asker. Hell, maybe the asker just wants to know you better before figuring out whether he wants to do anything else. But the getting hit on thing, that's much more annoying--it's this persistent, rude, doesn't-matter-what-you-want thing. I suggest that you all go read Miss Manners' books on these things. And, women, fer chrissakes, go ask someone out! suggest coffee or something casual to start! what's the worst that could happen--he says no?

2/17/2005

 
Blogger Emma Goldman said...

oops; you probably figured out that I meant the FORMER--i.e., asking out--is done respectfully, etc. sorry!

2/17/2005

 
Blogger U.T. Raptor Red said...

I'm one of those shy guys (and have Asperger's Syndrome, to boot) who is terrible at initiating and stuff. Hell, I've sat there frozen for long periods of time trying to get the courage to say something to a woman (and she was my girlfriend at the time!)...

Not to mention that I don't pick up subtlety very well. ^_^;; A woman practically has to either tell me outright before I'd notice she liked me...

2/18/2005

 
Blogger U.T. Raptor Red said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/18/2005

 
Blogger U.T. Raptor Red said...

-_- Sorry about that...

2/18/2005

 
Blogger Kelly said...

In one paragraph you state that men only have a 10 minute ordeal in asking someone out, but women have to do alot more to attract a guy (shaving, doing hair, picking out clothes, etc). But, isn't that the beauty of being able to ask a guy out? That way you don't have to worry about all that external stuff to let a guy know you're interested. I hate thinking about fashion, worrying about makeup or styling my hair, so I just decided asking the guy out was the best route. And it's an incredible rush when they say yes.

2/18/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sure some guys much prefer to initiate. I'm also sure some guys don't. But even those like me who aren't comfortable with initiating dates et al. have to suck it up and try anyway. Well, yeah, I did figure that not all guys actually wanted to initiate, and that some of them might have welcomed being asked out. Problem is, I figured the woman they wanted to be asked out by was some other, attractive woman, not me. And the proof that they didn't find me attractive, from my single, shy, not too confident point of view, was that they weren't sucking it up and trying anyway :-). Hey, I'm not saying it's fair, or that it doesn't result in a bum deal for shy guys, just that it's easy to think that way.

their biggest complaints about men were:

1. Men hitting on them all the time.
And this was me, too, the bane of your single existence - a woman who didn't want to take any initiative, but hated men hitting on her all the time. You might well wonder how "I'm sick of men hitting on me all the time" could live in the same head with "men don't find me attractive." Well, it's because "hitting on me" wasn't just any old approach, but a particular kind of approach, at best one which felt impersonal and left me thinking I was interchangeable with any old blow up doll, or, at worst, one which was scary and threatening and left me feeling that desire wasn't really the point of the exercise.

Examples of things that counted as "hitting on me": approaches in situations where I couldn't possibly be expected to feel safe, such as strangers in the street, approaches by men who were very visibly drunk (which again guarantees that I feel unsafe), men approaching my friends when they were in really inappropriate relationships to them, such as a teenaged babysitter being approached by the man who hired her, men not taking no for an answer. And though "hitting on" women happens all the time, I think it's a distinct minority of men who are doing it, and that your average guy who is worrying about how his approach will be received is really unlikely to be that obnoxious, as long as he doesn't make the mistake of taking a few drinks to bolster his courage.

And I won't miss it until I realize it a week too late. I can be pretty dense.And this was the other thing, that, as a single woman, I always assumed my interest was so obvious that you could practically read it in neon lights anyway, even if I was kind of, sort of trying to hide it.

One thing which made me wonder, though, years after the fact, whether my non-initiating had been such a good idea was a Dan Savage column about, believe it or not, a guy who was paying for massages in hopes that he would find a place that offered the sexual variety. He wanted to know how to bring up the topic with the masseuse. Savage asked a few masseuses of the regular, non-erotic variety, and their response was basically, we hate it when men come to us looking for that, but please, just come out with your request in plain language so we can set you straight, because that's much more comfortable for us than trying to deal with hints.

And it occurred to me that, after all, if someone preferred a straight approach for something as unwelcome as being mistaken for a prostitute, then maybe, after all, even the guys who weren't interested in me might, sometimes, have preferred a straight approach.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

2/19/2005

 
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