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Tuesday, February 08, 2005

The wage gap and cowboys

For crying out loud! In this country, we have a huge wage gap between men and women, a problem that should have been fixed a long time ago but actually has been getting worse and worse lately. But out of the thousands of counties in the United States, 15 actually have women making more than men on average. Clearly, this encroaching problem of potential balance needs to be addressed immediately, NPR sent some reporters to the where the gap was the widest to see if the men are all eunuchs or something.

Well, the truth actually makes for an interesting story to those of us interested in gender issues. The county where the gap is the widest is King County, Texas, and the reason for the woman over man wage gap is pretty much a fluke, albeit one with an ironic twist. The men there aren't unmanly by any stretch. In the tiny community in King County, most of the men are cowboys. And as someone who grew up in cow country, I can tell you that your average cowboy doesn't make enough to buy a pot to piss in.

Listen to the story--it's a hoot. The reason that the women in this town make more on average than the men has zip to do with feminism or the women's movement or anything like that, well at least the women's movement after women won the right to vote and own property. This wage gap is the result of the poverty wages that your average cowboy makes. These women work, as many women do, because they have to in order for their families to get by, as women of the working class have done throughout this country's history. The wives of cowboys have never been genteel women whose husbands take pride that they don't work. The work that they do has maybe changed some, brings in more income, but the basic fact that they are working has stayed the same.

That's why it's funny to hear the residents they interview hesitate when asked by the reporter if the woman's higher wages strain their marriage. (How come no one worries that marriages are strained by men's higher wages? The real wage gap of men over women is probably one of the major reasons we have a high divorce rate in this country.) The common perception that men are threatened by women who make more money isn't really as big an issue to people who need every penny they can get for the household. Where I grew up, women who took non-ranch jobs to support cowboy husbands were perceived as sacrificing so that their husband could keep the job he knew or loved. That's hardly the feminist clarion call for independence.

I'm not criticizing any of these people in King County, by the way, not the men who take on cowboy jobs or the women who may be making sacrifices in order to help their men keep the jobs they want. Everyone is doing the best they can for each other and for their families, something many of us would do well to emulate. In fact, one could even suggest that strategies for evening out the wage gap for the rest of us might come from their work ethic where usefulness has such a high value and women working is considered a normal part of life.

And I did get irritated at the NPR reporters who came off as condescending. Come on, people! Let's drop the condescension already! It's costing the Democrats elections, for fuck's sake!

401 Comments:

Blogger Julie said...

I agree about the tone of the NPR reporter. I wanted to smack him...his tone totally played into the stereotype of "liberals always complain about meaningless P.C. bullshit."

They also ended the story by focusing on a young woman who wants to marry a cowboy...all that good reporting that really dissects and clarifies the issue, but then they end it with a dreamy, romantic girl talking about marrying prince charming. Ugh.

2/08/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

Is the wage gap between men and women widening again? Is there something on the Internet you can refer me to?

I'd read a few years ago that the wage gap had a trend towards narrowing -- but because men's wages were dropping, while women's were static, which wasn't good news for men or for women.

2/08/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In listening to the NPR piece, I found it interesting that some cowboys get fringe benefits. Employer provided housing, medical insurance, and an entire cows worth of beef each year! Cowboy socialism?

2/08/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

The wage gap does not exist.

Sure, median wages are less. However, you, of all people should understand this. It's all those women who are part of the "natalist" culture that are bringing down the *median* wage.

Men and women with the same education, same skills, and same experience make pretty much the same amount of money. However, women who want to have kids and stay home tend to shy away from higher-paying occupations like medicine, law, engineering, since they don't want 4-8 years of education if they're going to stay home with the kids.

The wage gap is a statistical fact, but in all honestly, it's meaningless. The wage gap reflects different life choices by women, not discrimination by employers.

2/08/2005

 
Blogger Elinor said...

Ampersand has already covered that in detail, Brad, so I for one will not bother to argue.

2/08/2005

 
Blogger Pseudo-Adrienne said...

Thanks for the stereotypical view of ALL women within the work force Brad. I guess ALL women ARE driven by biological urges and we ALL want to put our uteruses to use.

Yep, there's not one woman among us who does NOT want to have children and are happy to take on long work hours, and then *gasp* expect equal pay, oh but because *some* women choose motherhood the rest of us should expect a lower salary from our male counterparts.

Bullshit Brad.

2/08/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Adrienne,
You apparently missed my point.

Women bring up the "wage gap" in the same breath as "equal pay for equal work". The point of the study I linked to is that for equal work, women seem to make about 98% of what men make, which is a small enough difference to be statistically insignificant.

My point is that women and men with the same experience, education, and skills make the same amount of money. However, any time you look at the *median*, you need to take other factors into account. If the median were to be 100%, rather than 75% or whatever it is, it would only mean one of two things. First, that women weren't having kids, or they were somehow doing it in such a way as to not affect their work life. As someone who once said "fuck off prego/child-worshippers", I think you wouldn't mind this. The other way to acheive a median of 100% is that the women who are working would make a great deal more than the men who are working, accounting for the difference caused by demographics. And since more women than men are attending collegethese days, that could begin to happen soon as well.

Either way, I think discrimination doesn't have all that much to do with it. Maybe a *small* part, but women are *not* making 75 cents on the dollar for equal work.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Diane said...

Actually, men and women with the same education, skills, and experience do not make the same amount of money. One of the chief reasons given is that women are not always prepared to negotiate a high enough salary. I suspect that is a valid reason.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

DED,
That's a good point. And maybe, just maybe, women have a hard time negotiating a higher salary because it's been trumpeted for the last 50 years that they only make xx% of what men make?

Perhaps, just perhaps, if we start actually telling women that they should make the same amount of money *for the same work*, they might go into those negotiations with a little more confidence. If they think the actual reality is more like 95-98% rather than 75%, they'll negotiate from a completely different perspective?

Or maybe, we should just start requiring basic economics and basic statistics classes for anyone trying to obtain a journalism degree. I'm just saying...

2/09/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Or maybe, we should just start requiring basic economics and basic statistics classes for anyone trying to obtain a journalism degree. I'm just saying..."

I think we'd be better off requiring more advanced economics for those who only have basic economics (and who then annoy the rest of us with their limited understanding of wage gap issues). I'm just saying...

--Barbara Preuninger

2/09/2005

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

"Employer provided housing, medical insurance, and an entire cows worth of beef each year! Cowboy socialism?"

It's not socialism for a company to offer benefits to a worker. Otherwise most white collar professionals in America work in socialist environments. If you define socialism that way, it becomes less clear why America out-lasted the Soviet Union in the Cold War.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger zuzu said...

Brad, you do realize that the choice is not between not having kids and working and having kids and staying home? And that many women, even in the professions, both have kids and work?

2/09/2005

 
Blogger lawrence krubner said...

The story surely raises questions about whether the red state/blue state divide maps out in any way to a patriarchy versus something less odius divide? My friends in the Democratic party tend to see the red states as monolithic, but it seems to me there is at least one division worth noting, the difference between the South and the West. The Western states have a libertarian spirit. They've taken the lead in legalizing marajuana, something the Southern states will never do. And in the reddest parts of the Western states, one still finds a "it's your private business" attitude that you never find in the South. Wife makes more than the husband? That's their private business. Uncle smokes pot to relieve pain from cancer? That's his private business.

The Democratic party currently takes extreme libertarian positions on just a handful of issues: abortion, free speech, safety from 'cruel and unusual' punishment. On most other issues, the Democrats are the party of regulation. If the Democrats were more consistently libertarian, they might be able to split the current conservative coalition, and pick up the West, and leave the South as isolated as it has been for most of its history. And let's face it, the current governing national coalition, run from the South, is destroying the country. Anything that might re-isolate the South is worth it.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Zuzu,
Of course I recognize that fact. And I would make the case that women who have kids and return immediately to work are pretty darn close to men in the "wage gap". I don't have any of the stats on that, so I'm open to take a look if you have any links.

And I would bet that you could find a very simple correlation between the amount of maternity leave women take and the median wage gap. I would suggest that women who don't have kids or take minimal maternity leave are pretty close to 100%. And that women who take 6 months/etc are probably lower, around 90%. And women who take 2-5 years to care for kids until they go off to school are probably at around 60%, as they typically don't take 2-5 years off if they have a high-paying professional job.

2/09/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps, just perhaps, if we start actually telling women that they should make the same amount of money *for the same work*, they might go into those negotiations with a little more confidence. If they think the actual reality is more like 95-98% rather than 75%, they'll negotiate from a completely different perspective?

This doesn't make any sense. You're making it sound as if people who claim that there *is* no wage gap are the only people who think there *should* be no wage gap — either that or that people who claim there is a wage gap are pushing women to be fatalistic about it.

In other words, this is the old "naming a problem is what causes the problem in the first place" argument. How tedious.

-kja

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

KJA,
Negotiating skills don't explain a 25% gap. My point is that I don't think a 25% gap exists. I think research shows that if there *is* a gap, it is very small, on the order of 2%, maybe slightly higher.

I think it may be the case that *if* there is a small wage gap, and it *is* attributable to women not negotiating higher salaries (as someone previously had offered as an explanation), that overstating the wage gap to be 20-25% may cause women to not negotiate as aggressively, creating the 2% gap or so that is seen when comparing apples to apples.

2/09/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it may be the case that *if* there is a small wage gap, and it *is* attributable to women not negotiating higher salaries (as someone previously had offered as an explanation), that overstating the wage gap to be 20-25% may cause women to not negotiate as aggressively, creating the 2% gap or so that is seen when comparing apples to applesYes, I understand that point. I just disagree. You're making it sound as if people who believe that there is a wage gap are out there telling women that they might as well not negotiate at all because no employer will ever pay them as much as a man would get anyway. That's nonsense.

-kja

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Diane said...

The last figures I saw were from 2002, and they showed that female doctors were making, on the average, $35,000 a year less than males with the same education, skills, and experience. Female attorneys were making $19,000 less annually, and female professors were making $13,000 less.

That indeed puts it at around 2%, I think, as Brad said. That is an encouraging figure unless you are one of the women being discriminated against because of your gender. There is no reason, in the 21st Century, for there to be any gap at all.

And of course, there is more to it than numbers. Professional women are still excluded, patronized, insulted, made fun of, and sexually harrassed by some professional men. They are also attacked by some professional men's wives who are threatened by the thought of their husbands' working next to women. Even with the achievement of equal pay, we have a very long way to go.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Pseudo-Adrienne said...

As someone who once said "fuck off prego/child-worshippers", I think you wouldn't mind this.Their sick obsession with occupied uteruses, swollen abdomens, and lactation may disgust me, but I'm not for discriminating against them via their yearly salary

2/09/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brad - You're arguing that women and men with the same education, skills, and experience make the same amount, therefore there is no "real" problem. As if somehow, these attributes are distributed by lottery or something and discrimination plays no part whatsoever in the *fostering* of education, skills or experience.
But the truth is that choices and inclinations for women are formed in a discriminating world, and this includes the *working* world as well as the college/home life/peer influence/etc.

In other words, if a boss doesn't see an employee as having potential, he/she will less likely provide training, or let them try out a new role in a company that's a little "above their head", etc. So if bosses generally see women as less capable, then women generally won't *aquire* comparable skills and experience, understand?

And that's setting aside the fact that an employer (even a fair-minded employer) may be concerned about the potential for a woman to quit when she has kid(s) or to take a long maternity leave, thus the hesitancy to provide "opportunities for growth" as described above.

So it doesn't say too much to talk about comparable skills and experience, when it probably takes a pioneering woman to even acheive those skills or experience.

By the way, as a woman working in computer science I have run head-first into plenty of people who assume I am less skilled/capable and cannot seem to change their minds about this (regardless of facts). Luckily, this is not everyone or even most people I encounter (although there's almost always the initial "proving" stage I have to go through). I'd be utterly kidding myself if I thought this phenomenon didn't have an effect on my salary. (i.e. how many interviews must I have gone to where I was either dismissed out of hand or even, because of very subtle perceptions, just narrowly lost to a similarly qualified man?)

Please don't try to tell me this "isn't a problem", or that it would stop being a problem if I took a class in Java or something... :op And definitely don't tell me that "all I need is some basic understanding of Economics" (since I have a degree in Economics...) It's so unbelievably patronizing. (Which is why I patronized you back - tit for tat, you know?)

You seem to be genuinely concerned about the stereotypical "mean boss" who just hates women &/or just blatantly refuses to see them as worthy of equal pay. And when you encounter evidence that this isn't the "real problem", you're ready to call it a day. Well, I'll agree that "lots and lots of mean bosses" isn't the "real problem". The real problem is a *mountain* of subtle factors that are working out to a 25% pay gap between men and women. And those subtle factors all have to do with the (societal) perception of women's worth.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

DED,
Have a link? I want to check out the study. Thanks...

Anonymous,
Education, skills, and experience are not exactly determined by "lottery". Certainly there are a lot of reasons, both active and inactive, why "the wage gap" occurs. I have been arguing that some of this is due to women's life choices. Whether there is discrimination early in life that discourages women from even pursuing advanced careers such as medicine, law or engineering, that can be argued.

And I can say that if I were hiring someone, the possibility that they were going to up and leave their responsibilities for 6 months to go off and have a baby could affect my hiring decisions. Some would say that is wrong, but frankly it is a major imposition to an employer to have an employee leave for an extended period of time, and an employer wants to minimize that when possible.

I'm not saying life is entirely fair, or that it ought to be. What I am saying is that for women who choose to do things, such as attain advanced degrees, forego kids, and pursue career life instead of family life, the wage gap is almost nil. It may be harder, and part of that is based on society's pressure on women to avoid certain jobs or career paths. But there is a difference between equal opportunity and equal results. I make the statement that women have equal opportunity. But to assume that there are no ramifications to extended maternity leave, and no liabilities if your balance of work and family life is different than what your boss is looking for, is just silly. You have to make some tough decisions to exercise that equal opportunity.

And unless a heck of a lot more women make those choices above, "the wage gap" will exist. The question is whether that statistical gap really proves that women don't have equal opportunity.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Barbara Preuninger said...

Note: I was "anonymous" above and I intended to put my name, but forgot.

Brad,

Here's a major important point that I made in my post, that you seem to have glossed over.

"In other words, if a boss doesn't see an employee as having potential, he/she will less likely provide training, or let them try out a new role in a company that's a little "above their head", etc. So if bosses generally see women as less capable, then women generally won't *aquire* comparable skills and experience, understand?"

(and anecdotally)

"By the way, as a woman working in computer science I have run head-first into plenty of people who assume I am less skilled/capable and cannot seem to change their minds about this (regardless of facts). Luckily, this is not everyone or even most people I encounter (although there's almost always the initial "proving" stage I have to go through). I'd be utterly kidding myself if I thought this phenomenon didn't have an effect on my salary. (i.e. how many interviews must I have gone to where I was either dismissed out of hand or even, because of very subtle perceptions, just narrowly lost to a similarly qualified man?)"

I'm pointing out the notion that regardless of choices I or any individual woman makes, it's quite arguable that workplace discrimination could still effect one's opportunities to gain "experience, skills, etc." Now admitedly, this kind of thing is very hard to prove. It would best be addressed by something like the study where the same resume was rated differently depending on the gender of the name.

Now please address this point.

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Barbara,
Yes, it is a much harder question to answer. Any time someone is moving into a vocation that is highly dominated by people of another gender, they encounter some opposition. For example, I think men who go into nursing end up with many stigmas, much like women who go into engineering or computer science.

I don't think it is right when people may view you differently than another CS person. I'm an engineer, and my first job out of college was at a company that had about 50-60 engineers in my department. It was about 20% female (for those of you who look on that badly, it's electrical engineering, which is much more than 80% male overall). I don't know of anyone who thought of the female engineers as anything less than the males, and I doubt that there was any wage gap between the two. There did not seem to be any responsibility or opportunity gap either. Yet, I do understand that it is not necessarily the case elsewhere.

I do think that in that sort of atmosphere, it is more difficult to be treated equally. And I do think it is regrettable. What sort of effect that has on hiring or wages, I don't know, and don't have any data. I'm not going to reject that it is a problem, and if I had to hazard a guess, my gut feeling would be that it hurts during the initial interview stage, but once the foot is in the door, it gets better. It's a lot harder to discriminate against someone once you have to work with them every day.

Although, my anecdotal evidence of all the male computer-science majors I know from college, is that they (regardless of age) were a bunch of pre-pubescent losers. More than them looking down on you, they're just intimidated because you have breasts, and might have turned down the invitation to their Warcraft party... Just my opinion ;-)

2/09/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Huh? $35,000 wage gap between male and female doctors implies 2% gap? I don't think average doctors make $1.75 million a year.

Let's take a retail outlet.

It has 60 cashiers, 20 assistant managers, 9 managers, and one proprietor.

There are 40 female and 20 male cashiers, four female and 16 male assistant managers, one female and eight male managers, and the proprietor is a man.

All cashiers are paid $15,000 a year, assistant managers are paid $30,000 a year, managers get $75,000 a year, and the proprietor nets $200,000 a year.

As a whole, the 45 women working there get paid $795,000 (40 * 15,000 + 4 * 30,000 + 1 * 75,000)

As a whole, the 45 men working there get paid: $1,580,000 (20 * 15,000 + 16 * 30,000 + 8 * 75,000 + 200,000)

Now, the question is, what would you consider the wage gap to be at this establishment? Do you say that women get paid 49.7% less than men, because the average wage of a woman working there is $17,667 and the average wage of a man working there is $35,111, or do you say that there is no wage gap at all, because for each position, men and women are paid equally?

Both answers are technically correct, because they are really answers to subtly different questions. I think that meaningfully understanding why women are generally poorer than men requires that you look at it the first way, though. All cashiers, male and female, and paid equally, and all managers, male and female, and paid equally, but WHY are the mostly women and the managers mostly men? Did things just fall from the heavens like that?

Julian Elson

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Diane said...

Brad, here is an article I found that breaks it down by weekly salary: http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/women/equalpay/FactSheetTimeForEqualPay.cfm

2/09/2005

 
Blogger Barbara Preuninger said...

Brad,

As far as I know, male nurses on average make more than female nurses and are more quickly promoted. Go figure...

And, based on anecdotal evidence only - there are a select few people I encountered that could/would *never* change their opinion about me, even when my skills clearly blew theirs out of the water. So no, I don't think it's just the interview stage that's a problem. I was supposed to be a "team leader" once of two very obnoxious men who both seemed to relish the idea of themselves coming to the rescue of poor little technically incompetent women. What do you think happened when I told them what to do, regardless of the fact that I clearly knew much more than they did? (In case you're not sure - it was an abysmal failure and they never really did any work - I ended up doing everything.) Let's say this kind of thing happens to a lot of women (not totally implausible). Very likely it will effect women's perceptions of themselves as successful managers, and their tendency to pursue such roles. In my personal situation, I really don't think I *am* interested in being a manager, but I've had to carefully examine my own motivations in a way that a man never would.

I've also encountered a man who simply wouldn't use the code I had written to finish a project. That situation neither affected my perception of myself or my skills (just my perception of him!), but maybe a woman with less confidence in herself would have been affected.

It only takes a few jerks, trust me. On the bright side for me, there were also a few people who did see my potential, even when I didn't. So my story isn't exactly meant to inspire pity for myself (or to show the typical workplace as a hotbed of raging misogyny), rather to illustrate the possibility of a very real disparity of opportunity.

BTW, You say that the women in your department have never experienced any kind of discrimination from anyone at your workplace. But have you ever asked them?

2/10/2005

 
Blogger Brad Warbiany said...

Julian,
Yes, that is the question. And I would say that discrimination may play some part in that, but I wouldn't say that it is all discrimination. At the same time, a comparison of how many women had applied or had been considered for such positions, compared to how many were hired, is the easiest way to determine whether it was discrimination or not. I'm not arguing that there is no "glass ceiling". There very well may be. My point is that the "equal pay for equal work" argument doesn't completely hold water.

DED,
I'm still concerned about the methodology of the studies you cite. I've got two links to the Society of Women Engineers that may help. As I mentioned before, engineering is a very heavily male-dominated field. First is a tally of women by engineering discipline. I include this because certain fields in engineering (such as electrical) tend to be higher paid than other fields, and at the same time have lower numbers of females. Due to the high overall number of EE's, it could skew median income data. Second is a comparison of salaries by number of years worked. As far as how to interpret this, I do not know. It shows that at the early point of a career, men seem to be ahead, then later in a career, women catch up. I don't know why that is, but I think it doesn't show (even in the worst-case 1-5 years out of school) a 25% gap. The 14% it shows for that spread is higher than I expected, but after that time frame, the closest is 10-14 years at a 10% gap (I leave out 25-29 years as the number appears to be an anomaly). Getting some better granularity of the numbers (perhaps salary of men v women in the individual disciplines, indexed to time worked as above) would help greatly.

Barbara,
Actually, I didn't ever ask them. I'm sure their perception could have been different than mine. And, I can see your point about how a few curmudgeons could definitely skew the whole experience. And again, in a situation like that, I don't know the answer. Beyond becoming a ballbuster, I don't know many ways to control underlings like that. I haven't had much experience managing people at this time, so I can't offer much advice.

2/10/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"BTW, You say that the women in your department have never experienced any kind of discrimination from anyone at your workplace. But have you ever asked them?"

Thank you, Barbara. The rest of your arguments haven't been too shabby either, but I really love this one. I'm still not sure whether to laugh or applaud. (Or cry, some days.)

--Kim

2/12/2005

 
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12/12/2005

 
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12/14/2005

 
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12/16/2005

 
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12/18/2005

 
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12/20/2005

 
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12/22/2005

 
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12/25/2005

 
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12/25/2005

 
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12/26/2005

 
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12/30/2005

 
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12/30/2005

 
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12/31/2005

 
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1/01/2006

 
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1/02/2006

 
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1/03/2006

 
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1/03/2006

 
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1/05/2006

 
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1/06/2006

 
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1/07/2006

 
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1/07/2006

 
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1/09/2006

 
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1/12/2006

 
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1/12/2006

 
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1/13/2006

 
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1/13/2006

 
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