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Friday, March 04, 2005

No, you really don't have to sleep with him for his self-esteem

Cary Tennis had an advice column a couple days ago where the writer described what most women will probably recognize as a sadly all-too-common occurrence--men ask her out, she turns them down, and they get extremely hostile with her. The writer was black and suggested that this might be a black thing, and if she wanted assurance that it's not, she wrote to the wrong person. Men who don't do this sort of thing are usually oblivious to it. Mythago and I educated quite a few of them over at Hugo's blog that being called "bitch" or otherwise treated disparagingly because you don't just drop your panties when asked is way common.

The guys at Hugo's remained unconvinced that a woman who rejects a man only to suffer harassment or a woman who raises a fuss when groped in public can expect to be treated with more contempt by the general public than her harasser. Well, fellas, meet the people who wrote into Salon this week to explain to this woman why she should be downright grateful that men condescend to get angry with her and otherwise express the belief that they are entitled to access to her body just because they asked.

Puh-leeze. Perhaps you did not feel you could take her to task for being vain and shallow because she played the race card, but this woman's "dilemma" has nothing to do with race, or male/female interaction; it's about her own ego, narcissism and insecurities.... It's telling that she only mentions the men's physical traits and never seems interested in their character. She could be missing a real good Brother because of her own hang-ups or shallowness.

Actually, when you shoot a man down for whatever reason and he calls you a name, that's a pretty good indication you aren't missing out on shit. The advice asker did indulge her own vanity a little bit, but nothing outrageous--bottom line, she is telling men "no" and they are not accepting her answer. That is inexcusable and these men should not be sided with.

The next letter is full of pity for men for having to do the approaching.

Because many men feel that the onus is on them to start a conversation or the opportunity may be lost, maybe women who are approached -- by any man, in any league -- should be gentle with any man who has the rocks to go on up and say something. Plus, she can take it as a compliment.

I don't disagree that approaching someone can be difficult. But this is no excuse to disparage someone for rejecting you. Period. Feeling entitled to a woman's intentions is not having "rocks". It's being a bully. By the way, it's quite a trick there, turning someone's hostile temper tantrum into a "compliment". Most of us don't have that rich a fantasy life and know when we're being insulted. And having someone act like you stole something from him just because you won't go out with him is an insult.

The next letter is the standard "women need to lower their standards" letter coupled with the "women owe men their time" letter.

What kind of man would she consider "out of her league" -- and why? And what is she afraid of? What if some man she considers out of her league finds her delightful, interesting, or fun to talk to, not caring if her education or income match his? And how does she know that some of these "unsuitable" men might not be interesting, smart, insightful, warm, loving, loyal and sexy?... I would just suggest, as does Tennis, that she at least give them a minute or two of her time before dismissing them.

I hate to keep hammering at it, but a man who gets angry when you reject him has told you everything you need to know about his character. You may turn Mr. Anger Management into a warm, loving, blah blah in your own head, but odds are that the rest of the world will think you're a fool anyway. But this letter has so much more going on. I would suggest to anyone who is preparing to tell a woman that she needs to consider dating men she finds unappealing whether or not they would give that advice to a man. I know I wouldn't tell a guy friend to date a girl who doesn't feel attraction for, so why would I tell a girl friend?

One person who wrote in today nailed it on the head. Kudos to her.

Just look at films, where someone like 60-something Harrison Ford or Sean Connery is romantically paired with 20-something actresses. Or television, where the stupid, insensitive, balding, dumpy schlub has a hot, thin wife who looks 10 to 20 years younger. And let a woman dare to turn a man down because she finds him physically repulsive, and we're called shallow. Yeah -- he's 50 and is hitting on 19-year-olds, and I'm shallow.

When I read these letters, I tried to imagine what would happen if a woman hit on a man who looked at her, didn't like how she looked, said no, and then got an angry response where the woman says thing like he should be grateful to get attention at all or called him a shallow asshole. I'm sure it's happened, and if there's any guys who can tell me their stories about it, I'd be grateful. But I don't imagine a woman who did this would be getting letters of sympathy from strangers if her behavior was described in a public forum like this.

Edited to add: If you aren't thoroughly creeped out enough for a Friday, read JC Christian's ode to men who love women who can't say no.

313 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I read that. Cary annoys me so much that I don't read his column consistently anymore.

Though I recognize it's true, I have such a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that many men think they have a right to sex with a particular woman. Perfectly reasonable men recognize all the time that, in other areas of life, when they propose close, mutual relationships they may get turned down. I pitch people to be my clients all the time, but I don't get mad when they don't want to do it. Some guys want to be in somebody else's band, be someone's roommate, go into business with someone. These folks can say no -- for any reason or for no reasons. Because you don't keep the bathroom clean, or because they're afraid you'll take their beer and let your whiny pothead friends play the PS2 all day. Or just because they don't really have the time to be in a band with you right now.

But when it comes to women and sexual desire, lots of otherwise sensible men get all entitled.

In the front of their heads, they can say all the right things about women being equals. In the back of their heads, some guys are walking about with the concept that women are livestock.

Thomas

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Linnaeus said...

I've been on both sides of the fence on this one. I've gotten shot down more times than I care to admit. I was always disappointed, sometimes hurt and a little angry. But actually getting openly angry with a woman who turns you down just doesn't make sense. It's rude and it sure as hell isn't going to convince her to go out with you if she's already said no.

I've been asked out by women I didn't want to go out with, and once the woman expressed very strong negative sentiment about my choice. But that was her problem, not mine, and I made that very clear.

Life sucks sometimes, and you gotta suck up and move on. There's plenty of other potential dates out there.

3/04/2005

 
Anonymous Quidnunc said...

This thread reminds me of an old saying about the difference between a slut and a bitch. A slut is a woman who sleeps with everyone. A bitch is a woman who sleeps with everyone but you.

3/04/2005

 
Anonymous david said...

I think you're post is a bit misleading here. She didn't ask Cary why these men get hostile when they get shot down. She asked why would they think they have a chance with a woman as foine as her to begin with. And she came off sounding rather conceited, imo.

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

What would make this type of man feel perfectly comfortable in approaching me and then get angry when he is rejected?Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Maybe she is arrogant, but that doesn't change the basic experience that she's talking about here. One problem here is that we all operate under the same cultural message that women owe men our time and attention and even our bodies on demand, so a lot of us, instead of offering a feminist and subversive criticism of the treatment we receive replace it with a more culturally acceptable belief that there are "leagues" and you just don't cross that line. Meaning, "Well, some women may owe men gratitude for this, just not me."

Regardless of how you feel about her attitude, it doesn't change the basic issue.

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Anne said...

I would suggest to anyone who is preparing to tell a woman that she needs to consider dating men she finds unappealing whether or not they would give that advice to a man. Heh, that's the best line in the whole thing.

3/04/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

david:

So _what_!

I read it too. Let's stipulate that she is stuck-up, conceited and overestimates her own attractiveness. Then, by turning away sexual partners that she could have in favor of those she can't, she's accepting the consequences of lower sexual activity -- certainly her right.

If she wants to turn down all men because she's waiting for Jude Law, that's her right. It may amount to celibacy, but it's her right.

Maybe she is very attractive. Maybe she has her pick of male sexual partners, and can afford to hold out for exactly what she wants. If she only dated sensitive, artistic guys, would anyone blame her for refusing the advances of frat boys and jocks?

The bottom line is, you don't have to like her. Nobody is asking you to be her friend. But these guys are getting upset about being deprived of something they have absolutely no right to.

Thomas

3/04/2005

 
Anonymous david said...

Amanda, it seemed to me that she was bothered that these guys had the temerity to approach her at all. But the link is there at the top of the post. People can read it and come to their own conclusion.

She has the right to do anything she wants. She has the rights to her own standards. She has the right to date who she wants. She has the right to shoot down who she wants. That doesn't change the fact that men she doesn't want to approach her -- men whom she thinks are beneath her -- may still very well approach her. And I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a guy approaching her. After all, like we've stipulated already, she has the right to say no.

As to why they're angry, I don't know. It could be because of the reason you're assuming, that they believe they have some sort of right to her. It could be that she's rude and nasty when she turns them down, which wouldn't surprise me judging by the tone of her letter. But there aren't enough facts presented here for us to know one way or another

3/04/2005

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I tried to imagine what would happen if a woman hit on a man who looked at her, didn't like how she looked, said no, and then got an angry response where the woman says thing like he should be grateful to get attention at all or called him a shallow asshole. .

I watched a friend do that at a bar. It was very uncomfortable, but I knew that it came from insecurity and jealousy (the hot bartender had been hitting on us both the previous time we'd been there, I'd slipped him a business card, and he'd called me, though I'd had to hang up so I don't know why he was calling or which one he was calling for. Friend assumed it must be her and was annoyed that he wasn't hitting on her the same way the next time we went back). But, ugh.

I had a discussion recently with someone who has a propensity to expound on things. He expounded that the problem with women is that they "have all the pussy." And even though he likes women, really likes them, I found this jarring and disappointing. It's as if men think that there's some kind of Pussy Oversoul that they are entitled to, and that access can only be had through women, who inconveniently have certain ideas about who they want to be with. Most men may grumble when they get shot down, but others get angry about being denied access to the Pussy Oversoul and will lash out at the stupid gatekeeper for failure to go along.

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

I love it--the Pussy Oversoul. That's my imaginary new band's name. The possibilities for flyer art are endless.

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Lindsay Beyerstein said...

Who writes in for Cary's opinion about what's "a black thing"? You might as well write the Pope for advice on differentiating "a lesbian separationist thing" from run of the mill rejection.

3/04/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cary has started speaking warmly of Dr. Laura in his columns. Thus he is now useless.

3/04/2005

 
Blogger Will said...

I agree with most of the commenters that it is inappropriate to become (overtly) angry when rejected. It is certainly natural to have an emotional reaction to being rejected. Rejection is painful. It hurts. Being hurt makes you angry. But displaying that anger to the person who rejected you is an immature response and is unacceptable. In the high majority of cases the rejection was not INTENTIONLLY hurtful. However, there are instances when the rejection is intentionally hurtful. I tend to think that from the tone of letter she wrote Ms. "Out of Their League" might have a tendancy to be intentionally hurtful in these instances. If that is the case, she might be getting what she deserves. If not, she certainly doesn't deserve to be attacked. Of course, none of us know how she actually rejected these individuals.

3/05/2005

 
Blogger Anthony said...

I'm a fellow who has rejected a girl's advances before. You get called 'queer'.

3/05/2005

 
Blogger Amanda said...

You know, I've seen god knows how many male friends reject girls who approach them on accident. I don't know if it's just that these men don't realize they're being hit on, or if the women are just way too subtle or if it's a combination. But it happens all the time--I'll be standing with friends and we'll see a woman approach a guy friend and start chatting him up, maybe touch his collar, lean in, the whole bit. After a few minutes, she walks away with that look you get when you're rejected but you're wisely choosing not to dwell on it. When you get a chance to talk to him, you give him shit, "Like, what was wrong with her? Why'd you shoot her down?" And he'll be surprised, not even knowing that he was getting hit on.

This happens all the time. It's a shame, really, especially when your friend suddenly realizes he probably would have liked to talk to her more but now she feels rejected and he can't.

3/05/2005

 
Blogger zuzu said...

I love it--the Pussy Oversoul. That's my imaginary new band's name. The possibilities for flyer art are endless..

Hee. My imaginary band's name is Roaming Pigs, from an entry I saw in a police logbook in a rural town in Connecticut when I was a reporter.

3/05/2005

 
Anonymous mythago said...

All hail the Pussy Oversoul!

I've found that guys who try the 'all the pussy' line get very confuzled when it's pointed out that men have all the dick. They just haven't grasped the notion that women like sex, too--y'know, a pussy is merely a complex biological masturbation device for men.

3/05/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you have an uncontrollable drive/urge/addiction of any kind, then other people become mere stepping stones to satisfying your need. If you're a highly-sexed guy, you want *sex*, not necessarily a relationship with a female fellow-human. Having to deal with a relationship with a female fellow-human is a huge pain in the ass iff all you want is sex. It's not just a guy thing, some lesbian friends have griped about exactly this same problem.

I've seen this from women too. The Romantic Oversoul generates just as much human-disregarding addictive behaviour too. Let's not forget the Money Oversoul... and what humiliation people will endure and abuses they will commit in order to "get" some.

There's another addiction with more serious implications too: the Baby Oversoul. I know a few women who-- through astoundingly Macchiavellian means-- "snared" wrong/incompatible/useless/ugly/nasty mates, simply because when you get over 35 that clock starts a-gonging! I've asked around and discovered that "accidentally" getting pregnant on purpose is a pretty common phenomenon.

Whether you're a scheming guy trying to "snare" some pussy, or a scheming women trying to "trap" a man (and make him "commit"-- ugh, Cosmo), it's all an example of the stupidity humans will engage in when their brains get overrided by that animal-level biological need to reproduce: if you're one of the unlucky ones who suffers from it, nothing will stand in your way.

3/06/2005

 
Blogger FoolishOwl said...

That "Pussy Oversoul" sounds suspiciously like the way Jacques Lacan talked about the phallus.

Which may be more evidence that Lacan was just using complex syntax to transcribe drunken conversations from bars.

3/06/2005

 
Blogger drumgurl said...

Amanda, I have a guy story. I'm not a guy, though.

Anyway, lots of guys in bands get attention from the ladies. Most band guys like it, but some don't. Some guys just aren't interested in a particular woman, or they have a girlfriend, or some other reason. The women get really pissed when they get rejected. Unfortunately, they usually end up thinking it's their fault, like they're not pretty, etc. Once a female bartender even refused to serve beer to my bandmate because he wouldn't kiss her!

Some guys also don't like the constant boob-flashing. Not because they're afraid of female sexuality-- imagine how you'd feel if a guy flashed you. I've had it done, and I didn't like it! I think women are taught that if they're attractive, every guy will want them. This just isn't true. It's that myth of male weakness thing Hugo was talking about.

3/09/2005

 
Anonymous Imagynne said...

My favorite part (and I'm surprised no-one's picked up on it), is the part where he says, "Yeah, actually. It is a black thing. You're right."

I note that you identify yourself as a black woman, and these are black men, and you indicate that race is an issue in these encounters. I think your intuition is probably correct -- not that white men don't try to pick up women who are similarly out of their league, but that there is something more going on here.

So....let me get this right. They're getting hostile, and because they're black men, there's 'something more going on here'? How about they're getting hostile because they're half-wit assholes? Fuck you, Cary. Fuck. you.

3/15/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No one anywhere is demanding that the letter writer "sleep with" some strange guy she'd rather not touch just to boost his self-esteem.

I had to laugh at her notion that she's obviously so fantastically awesome that at a long-range glance any one of us sub-alpha guys ought to dart cross the street to the opposite sidewalk whenever Her Grace swans forth, lest he be call'd an untaught knave, unmannerly, bringing his slovenly unhandsome corse betwixt the wind and her nobility...

But if only Her Majesty knew me personally! All my life I've always been way shy and afraid to talk to any women at all. Some days I can't bring myself to go to the grocery store; the idea of going to a nightclub or worse, a party scares me so bad I'm shaking and sweating just thinking about it. Consequently I've endured stretches of three, four, five years with absolutely no dates at all, during which periods I contemplated suicide no fewer than six times a waking hour. I can't help feeling Her Grace would think that was just about perfect.

3/19/2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Truly, Pepé Le Pew is a role model for many a man.

However…
“After a few minutes, she walks away with that look you get when you're rejected but you're wisely choosing not to dwell on it.” That is not rejection – that is disappointment. If you don’t come right out and say something direct, like “come to me baby with eyes like a frog, breakdown like a shotgun and squeal like a hog,” then you have not set yourself up for rejection.

If I read the letter correctly, what we are talking about are men who completely ignore a woman’s efforts to make it clear that an overture is not wanted, men who make a play even though there is no reason to believe the woman is receptive, and then get pissed off when the delicate fem won’t give up a phone number or make a date or agree to go out to their car for 15 minutes or whatever.

I’ve “rejected” men in the past, but if they had been paying attention or cared it would have been clear that I was just not that into them.

Of course, a couple of the rejectees persisted. One won me over. Another finally required legal action.

L'amore! L'amore! Ain't it a kick in the head?

3/19/2005

 
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